Navigating Change: The Role of Leadership in Innovation

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:12 Stephanie You're listening to. From Illumination to Innovation, a revealing and provocative exploration of the rapidly shifting landscape of values, purpose, leadership, and culture, both corporate and social. I'm your host, Stephanie Crain. 00:00:15:14 - 00:00:31:19 Shaniqua And I'm your host, Shaniqua Brown. We're excited to have you join us as we shine a light on new perspectives, amplify voices of influence, and elevate bright ideas that will expand your idea of what's possible in business and beyond. 00:00:31:19 - 00:00:41:10 Shaniqua Brown Welcome back to. From Illumination to Innovation. I'm your co-host, Shaniqua Brown, the founder of Elevated TA. 00:00:41:12 - 00:01:06:24 Stephanie Crain And I'm your co-host, Stephanie Crain. I am founder of Tapas Innovation., and I am extremely excited about our topic today. We are going to be talking about leadership styles and innovation and we have brought two fantastic experts on to have this conversation with us. I'm going to read because I'm not that I. Okay. So so we have we have David Greenspan. 00:01:07:01 - 00:01:35:18 Stephanie Crain David is the founder of Blue Case Strategic Partners and which is a leadership strategic planning firm and development consultancy firm. He also holds a Ph.D. and I wrote this on high performance psychology, which I found fascinating. I didn't even know that that Ph.D. existed. And so then with David, we have Justin Follin, and he is the co-founder and CEO of Blue Case, and he describes himself as a lifelong student and teacher 00:01:35:24 - 00:01:48:17 Stephanie Crain of what brings out the best in people, which just made me smile reading it. So I'd like to toss over to David and Justin and let you say a little bit more about yourselves. David, if you want to pick it up. 00:01:48:19 - 00:02:08:08 David B. Greenspan Yeah, sure. Thanks for that introduction and thank you for having us today. Yes. So I have a PhD in a field called High Performance Psychology. So it looks at why do certain teams and individuals perform at exceptional levels even in suboptimal circumstances. And I'm the founder of Blue Case and also the coauthor of our book. Be a Better Team by Friday. 00:02:08:08 - 00:02:32:00 Justin Follin And I am Justin Follin and the CEO and co-founder of Blue Case, author of Be a Better Team by Friday. And. And and David, I've been working together for for many years to apply high performance psychology and combine it with strategic planning, leadership development and performance coaching to excel teams, excel companies and the leaders who run them. 00:02:32:01 - 00:02:33:08 Stephanie Crain Excellent. 00:02:33:10 - 00:02:41:05 Shaniqua Brown I'm curious, how did you like your paths cross with Blue Case? Like, how did it start? 00:02:41:07 - 00:03:14:13 Justin Follin Well, I'll go back even further. Before I met David, I was. I was a student at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and I graduated from school and I did not know what I wanted to do when I grew up. And I was working in the banquet hall at the alumni center at at the school and had the good fortune to be a server on the very first night of the very first game of the the basketball season, the year that the coach, Roy Williams, came from the University of Kansas to take over the losing team in the history of the school. 00:03:14:15 - 00:03:38:15 Justin Follin Wow. So I was there in the back of the room and I was watching him talk to each of these guys in a way that was so inspiring that I felt like I could win a national championship, which obviously I'm not going to be a national championship basketball player, but I felt like I could be that amazing. And, you know, he ended up taking that same team, losing his team and the history of the school to win the national championships. 00:03:38:15 - 00:04:17:24 Justin Follin Same five guys. So I have always been fascinated. What is that? What is it that has someone able to bring out the best in people? And I have spent my career focusing on that and I eventually became a performance coach. I was working with Ted. TedX speakers, in fact, and visionary CEOs I was working with for poker players, athletes just to get that peak performance state and David and I met because I had been at a party at his house and I was looking at the library books that he had in his library and every single one of them either I had read or I wanted to read, and I was like, I got to 00:04:17:24 - 00:04:38:24 Justin Follin meet this guy. And so we quickly became friends and were friends much longer than than our., our partnership was established and David really started this business and brought me in to help grow it from a small consulting one person shop to really um the firm that we are today. And we've been doing that together for about eight years, a little over eight years. 00:04:39:01 - 00:04:41:01 Justin Follin Company was founded in 2013, though. 00:04:41:03 - 00:05:24:20 Stephanie Crain That's fantastic. That's a great story too. I love that finding inspiration in that moment and that the sense that you took from that like feeling like, my God, I could go do this too. And it says so much about that person's leadership skills, what they were conveying energetically. That's powerful. It is. And yeah, I one of the things that I saw, y’all had noted, I think the ideal of like taking groups sort of from mediocrity to excellence and in that sense of when you're talking about working with leaders and sort of helping to develop them towards, you know, building more innovative businesses or even just businesses that are just running better. 00:05:24:22 - 00:05:39:12 Stephanie Crain Like what I was wondering if you could talk about, like, what does the mediocrity look like and how do people sort of know that they're just mediocre, you know, like where does that awareness come in and how do you how do you how do you help them identify that? 00:05:39:14 - 00:06:03:02 David B. Greenspan Yeah, Yeah. It's a good question. So you know, when Gallup does these surveys of businesses, they find that about 70% of the workforce is disengaged. So so only 30% of the people. So you're paying for 100% of the people, but only 30% of your dollars that are spent on wages are actually driving the business for the rest is really a waste. 00:06:03:04 - 00:06:27:13 David B. Greenspan And the business oftentimes can be performing well with even just 30%. They can be making money, they can be moving forward, have happy customers. But if you but from an efficiency perspective, it really is mediocre. And what's happening oftentimes is that the the CEO is noticing that he or she is noticing, like, why do things take so long? 00:06:27:15 - 00:06:49:24 David B. Greenspan You know, things are getting thrown over to the fence. The executive team there seems to be conflict people. There's communication challenges like and they'll often say, well, I guess every business just must have communication challenges. But part of what they're noticing is, is that you have a workforce that is not engaged, and so you have innovation and creativity, intelligence that's inside the company that's currently offline. 00:06:50:01 - 00:06:51:03 David B. Greenspan And so part of. 00:06:51:05 - 00:06:51:11 Stephanie Crain I like that. 00:06:51:11 - 00:06:58:03 David B. Greenspan We want to do when we come in is we take that 70% or whatever percentage is, maybe it's 50% and put it online. 00:06:58:03 - 00:07:10:22 David B. Greenspan But the way you notice it oftentimes is both qualitative and quantitative. Like there's issues like they're not maybe not hitting their growth numbers or they're growing, but not quickly enough, or you just, you know, things just quaint. 00:07:10:24 - 00:07:18:10 David B. Greenspan It doesn't feel like you have the same edge that when you initially started the company, there was like a sense of edge and now it feels like you've gotten soft in the middle. 00:07:18:10 - 00:07:45:07 Stephanie Crain When you go into an environment and you're working with like a leadership team, is there usually like one person that sort of championing the work more than others, or is everybody on the same like, when you when you're coming into those environments, maybe somebody has had the CEO has had some awareness, but is the COO or the the CFO or are they always on the same page together or do they have do you find that they have that same awareness too, or do you have to help raise awareness in those situations? 00:07:45:09 - 00:07:52:07 David B. Greenspan What the CEO is always the person that brings us in. So it might be maybe the head of people will will come in and introduce us, but 00:07:52:07 - 00:08:01:23 David B. Greenspan but the CEO is the one who's championing it. And and again, the CEO might not even know exactly what the issue is. They're just noticing like, God, this doesn't I know like we should be doing. 00:08:02:00 - 00:08:25:00 David B. Greenspan We're incredible. Our products, incredible. Our team's incredible. Why aren't we doing better? Right. And they oftentimes do have different perspectives. So when we actually talk, we do interviews at the beginning of the at the beginning of our engagements. And when we talk to people, they sort of describe slightly different companies as we’ll say what's what's, you know, what's the biggest in the way in the company and what what are the initiatives? 00:08:25:00 - 00:08:44:16 David B. Greenspan One of the most important initiatives and they'll describe the initiatives differently. Even teams that are close and they’ll oftentimes describe some of the problems differently as well. And part of what we want to do is we want to bring out all these different perspectives, because the reality is, is everybody's right, Right? Everybody has their perspective actually has some validity in. 00:08:44:16 - 00:08:51:20 David B. Greenspan And it's not that the CEO is wrong. Just, you know, he or she has a particular vantage point, just like I'm looking this way and you're looking this way. 00:08:51:22 - 00:08:53:07 Stephanie Crain And expanding. 00:08:53:07 - 00:08:55:16 David B. Greenspan Expand and bringing all those together. Exactly. 00:08:55:16 - 00:08:56:10 Stephanie Crain That makes sense. 00:08:56:14 - 00:09:15:23 David B. Greenspan So oftentimes they're there. They do have different perspectives and it's not. But that's actually very healthy. And we want that because that's actually how you can see the whole when you can bring everyone's perspective together and have it be heard and have it be understood and acknowledged. And that's a key part of kind of how we work together. 00:09:16:02 - 00:09:17:00 Stephanie Crain Yeah. 00:09:17:02 - 00:09:21:07 Shaniqua Brown And so I have a question about, 00:09:21:07 - 00:09:52:15 Shaniqua Brown you know, building on on that in like our current climate, like how there's a lot of uncertainty around political or even like economic and it's like impacting people's personal lives and work lives like hand in hand. So like how, like, how can you work with leaders? Like, how does your work with leaders, like help them, like usher in a new mindset for themselves and to like, you know, help empower their employees to change your mindsets? 00:09:52:17 - 00:10:09:19 Justin Follin Well, you know, talk about mindsets. I think that one of the things, you know, you hear a lot about mindsets you hear about the growth mindset, for instance, it's really important if you're in if you're in a fixed mindset, you think to yourself, I can't get any better at this skill that I'm that I'm working at. If you're in growth mindset is thinking, hey, I'm I'm not that good. 00:10:10:00 - 00:10:28:01 Justin Follin You know, I'm working on this TEDx talk and I'm doing at first I'm like, I cannot memorize, I cannot do this. And that's going on in my head. Yeah, it's going on in everybody's head. And some of the negativity bias, you know, you just naturally we're sort of programed to be focusing on these negative things. It helps protect us, but it limits us. 00:10:28:01 - 00:10:46:20 Justin Follin So there's mindsets and, you know, we know that, especially those of us who are leaders, we know you got to be able to shift your mindset. You don't just go to a class and shift your mindset one time. You shift your mindset probably every day, multiple times a day, because you're seeing that voice going through your head. So. 00:10:46:22 - 00:11:04:05 Stephanie Crain You know, it's interesting. I just dealt with something very personally on this level. Where am my daughter was in the hospital and she kept saying, I want to leave. I want to leave. And I told her finally, I'm like, If you keep saying I want to leave, you will say, Well, you need to say yes. I want to get better, because when you get better, you get to leave. 00:11:04:07 - 00:11:23:10 Stephanie Crain And it's just this mindset of shifting because all you're focusing on in that one space is what you can't do, what you can't control. But if you shift into what you can control, then you're more empowered. And she said, you know, immediately she was like, That makes sense. And she was like, But it's sometimes we are just like in our own heads, right? 00:11:23:10 - 00:11:35:22 Stephanie Crain We have these voices that they just are telling us these things and we can't get out of our own way sometimes that extra perspective, bringing in extra perspective makes a huge difference to kind of help just where your own mind is, I think definitely. 00:11:35:22 - 00:11:53:05 Justin Follin And I think that kind of when I'm talking about, well, how do you help teams get better at this? One of the things that we really focus on is coaching teams to be able to coach each other, to shift their mindset, to choose a different mindset. And, you know, we're working with the team where it was like one thing after another was going wrong. 00:11:53:11 - 00:12:19:19 Justin Follin You know, they were working so hard and then their there they lost a file that they had been working on. They lost the file. And so suddenly all their work has disappeared. Now, naturally, you're going to have a team whose mindset has just kind of plummeted in that situation. Yeah, but we were working with this team through practicing coaching each other, so there were four of them on the team and you know, three of them would be still in a positive mindset about the other one saying, no, it's it's hopeless, we can't do it. 00:12:19:19 - 00:12:42:18 Justin Follin And then it would be like, you know, how do you help that person come back? No, there is a possibility still. Let's get it. We're going to recreate what we we had done and then that team, you know, another person would kind of go into the disempowered mindset and then their coaching that person. So when you have a high performance team, you're all coaching each other to come back, come back, come back, and don't expect anyone to stay in 100% of the time. 00:12:42:18 - 00:12:44:05 Justin Follin You just help each other back. 00:12:44:07 - 00:13:05:05 Shaniqua Brown That is one of my favorite aspects of reading the book, hearing how it seems like your work really rallies behind connecting with everyone in the organization, starting with the top. stephanie and I are both big believers that leadership really drives the culture of the organization. But when you mentioned 00:13:05:05 - 00:13:17:18 Shaniqua Brown everyone's coaching each other, that is so empowering. Like you can actually like if I am down and Stephanie's up, she could really coach me through that, that negativity bias. 00:13:17:18 - 00:13:44:07 Shaniqua Brown So I find that to not only, you know, position leadership to do, you know, to actually lead by example, but it also creates individual leaders within the organization. When you're it sounds like when your organization also leads and it makes it more like, I guess maybe you can grow faster or have like better outcomes. How did like, how did you figure that out? 00:13:44:07 - 00:13:50:02 Shaniqua Brown I guess that aspect of like your your like strategy in your consulting? 00:13:50:04 - 00:14:16:17 Justin Follin Well, when we first started working with executive teams, we were focusing on their strategy and what was happening as they were starting to grow. So it was working. Their, their strategy led to better alignment on the team. They started to be able to execute inside their their set goals. And what they found was as they grew, they're coming back to us saying, Hey, how do we get it so that the executive team is not the only ones doing this stuff? 00:14:16:17 - 00:14:45:13 Justin Follin And how do we get it out to our next level leaders? How do we see more ownership happening in the company, not just on our team? We can't have it where the executive has to do everything or make all the decisions. We need the next level leaders to step up. So that's really where we started to expand our business was taking the work that we're doing, the executive teams and bringing together all of the directors and managers in the company and anyone who is a leader in the company to work on cross-functional problems together. 00:14:45:13 - 00:15:07:24 Justin Follin So how do they work together? Not like in marketing and engineering, for instance, you got a marketing team and an engineering team. A lot of times there there's a lot of tension and conflict and competing commitments between those two. How do we break down those silos and work together collectively as an organization to to better move towards those goals? 00:15:08:01 - 00:15:13:06 Justin Follin So we created very easy to apply one page tools, 00:15:13:06 - 00:15:33:00 Justin Follin brought them to all those directors and managers and then taught them how to teach those tools to the people that worked on their teams and we wanted to make sure that everything that we did was self propagating inside the organization. So they were learning how to be a coaching style manager and they were learning how to teach the tools that enable this kind of collaboration. 00:15:33:00 - 00:15:46:06 Justin Follin And as we did that, you started to see it kind of rippled out from the executive team into the organization. And that's what really turns on the the jet fuel effect, if you will, you know, to kind of make things go faster and get better. 00:15:46:08 - 00:15:52:20 David B. Greenspan Yeah. So in just a story about that, two years ago, we were working with the CEO and the executive team was pretty aligned. 00:15:52:20 - 00:16:15:22 David B. Greenspan But there was they had done some layoffs and some of the team was still kind of stuck on that. The morale was down a little bit. People had different concerns and about the business, the CEO at that time was new and there was some, you know, can we trust her fully? There were some new executive team members. There was. 00:16:16:01 - 00:16:37:06 David B. Greenspan So there's a lot of these different issues going on. And part of what we did is when we came in and we worked with their top leaders, we gave them these tools and the CEO had them go and share them and teach them to the entire organization. And right after, even after the two days that we spent with the team, the team was a different team. 00:16:37:06 - 00:16:49:23 David B. Greenspan Like they came in one team kind of like a little bit fragmented, a little bit like, you know, almost like when a team that is not performing well comes in at halftime, you know, and and then they leave and then they're they're fired. 00:16:49:23 - 00:16:51:05 Stephanie Crain Up and they come back to their team. 00:16:51:05 - 00:17:11:04 David B. Greenspan They come back and it was like that. It was like they came in one team and they they unified as a team and then they were empowered with these very behavioral things that they had practiced with themselves and then went out and started sharing with the company. And it created an entire new we call it like a leadership operating system so that people knew how to communicate with each other and they knew how to build relationships. 00:17:11:04 - 00:17:15:21 David B. Greenspan And how do you create high levels of engagement really quickly when you don't have time? You know. 00:17:15:22 - 00:17:25:16 Stephanie Crain Yeah, I'm curious. We are describing all this when you go into these environments and obviously you're there to solve problems. So problems exist and 00:17:25:16 - 00:17:34:11 Stephanie Crain does resistance come up and if it does, what does it look like as you're going through this process? Like, I'm just curious like how that shows up in the process. 00:17:34:13 - 00:17:37:08 Justin Follin I resistance comes up. 00:17:37:10 - 00:17:40:06 David B. Greenspan So yes. 00:17:40:08 - 00:17:41:18 Justin Follin Resistance comes up. 00:17:41:18 - 00:17:45:02 Stephanie Crain My favorite topic was. 00:17:45:04 - 00:17:47:09 Shaniqua Brown Like, you're just the guy to handle. 00:17:47:11 - 00:17:48:03 David B. Greenspan Yeah. Yeah. Ever not come up? 00:17:48:05 - 00:17:59:08 Justin Follin I remember a time I was standing in front of a room, and a lot of times this happens to people like us will be sitting in front of the room. At first 00:17:59:08 - 00:18:01:16 Justin Follin you know, stand in front of this room. 00:18:01:16 - 00:18:05:11 Justin Follin And it was it was a company that had had done an acquisition. 00:18:05:11 - 00:18:19:09 Justin Follin So it was basically a merger. And it was two years after the deal had happened. So they brought the company and two years later, they are still having all of the problems that inevitably come with mergers and acquisitions. Unless you work with people like us, 00:18:19:09 - 00:18:29:00 Justin Follin there's conflicts between the old companies. They're basically still operating like two companies. They got one t shirt that says the company name, but when I'm standing up there and saying, okay, we're. 00:18:29:05 - 00:18:31:17 Stephanie Crain In two different. 00:18:31:19 - 00:18:57:17 Justin Follin The company B, an who worked at company A, they all just raise their hands, you know, you know, who worked at each company. And so I'm standing in front of the room and I'm saying, well, today we're going to break down the silo and we're going to have a completely open and honest conversation among us all. And it is like crossed arms, you know, looking at me like, you know, you better go home or, you know, we're going home. 00:18:57:17 - 00:19:16:11 Justin Follin I mean, they're not there to to do that. It's a there's a lot of skepticism, a lot of resistance and with each other, too, because they've got all the personality conflicts. And so what we did was we we brought in the first thing that we do in most most of our engagements. We teach listening to understand. We we taught it, we practiced it. 00:19:16:13 - 00:19:34:04 Justin Follin And by the end of that day, you saw the silos in that room start to dissolve. People were talking to each other in a way they'd never been talking to each other. They're doing they're getting feedback from each other and their minds were blown. They had no idea what it was like for people across the line. And so they started listening to each other. 00:19:34:06 - 00:19:59:18 Justin Follin Nine months later, that company's engagement scores had gone up 40 points in 9 to 10 months, and it was higher than it had ever been. And we were doing that work with them over the course of that time. It's it's about listening to understand. But so yes, the the resistance is there. But that's going to be that's going to start to shift as people experience he thinks can actually be different and actually better. 00:19:59:18 - 00:20:15:12 Justin Follin And we're not just a random we know what we're doing, you know, and that and as that trust builds with us, with our tools, things really start to change. So I go from being the least liked person in the room to, you know, making friends with everybody. 00:20:15:14 - 00:20:17:09 Stephanie Crain And you ever being the least like. 00:20:17:11 - 00:20:18:03 Justin Follin You. 00:20:18:05 - 00:20:22:06 David B. Greenspan You're going have that perspective. Yeah. 00:20:22:08 - 00:20:22:19 Justin Follin Yeah. 00:20:22:21 - 00:20:31:00 David B. Greenspan Now, there was coughing when Justin was talking up and then there's coughing. I don't know if you've heard this cough, but like, you know, everyone was like this and they got the “bullsh*t” cough. 00:20:31:04 - 00:20:32:15 Justin Follin No, no, this is. 00:20:32:16 - 00:20:46:09 David B. Greenspan Working. And so that was like that was happening, you know, and there was even resistance on the executive team, too. There there was there was conflict between, you know, two of the executives on the team that was very high as well that had to be addressed. 00:20:46:13 - 00:21:09:19 Stephanie Crain I mean, in my experience working with businesses, that executive level conflict often is what's creating a lot of the toxicity to begin with. You know, And so what is that like for you in terms of are you going in and sort of mediating those executives together? Are you working with them individually and then together? Or is a do you address that conflict like just head on? 00:21:09:19 - 00:21:16:16 Stephanie Crain Like how do you approach it when it's kind of the heads that are really, you know, at, I guess, butting heads? 00:21:16:19 - 00:21:26:05 David B. Greenspan Yeah, you're you're entirely right. It sort of it starts at the top, right? Yeah. And if the if you don't have a healthy and aligned executive team, it doesn't even make sense to, 00:21:26:05 - 00:21:28:06 David B. Greenspan to do anything in the organization. 00:21:28:06 - 00:21:43:24 David B. Greenspan so part of what we're we always are beginning with the executive team with interviews to understand what's going on, what are all the unsaid conversations, what are all the things that are, discussable that you can talk about Like we want, we, we get what those conversations are. 00:21:43:24 - 00:21:46:04 David B. Greenspan So the by the time we're in the room, we know 00:21:46:04 - 00:22:03:08 David B. Greenspan the conversations that are happening well, and the conversations are not happening well. And we address it right away because the organization is a reflection of the CEO and his or her executive team. And so, you know, the company that the story that Justin was talking about, there are two leaders who 00:22:03:08 - 00:22:07:04 David B. Greenspan on the team that had a hard time even being in the same room together. 00:22:07:04 - 00:22:17:12 David B. Greenspan Wow. I mean, it was that was a lot of conflict. And to your point, what was going on is not only was there conflict with their two, with the two of them, but in their functions, Guess what? Weren't collaborating really. 00:22:17:12 - 00:22:18:17 Stephanie Crain Well, absolutely. And it was. 00:22:18:17 - 00:22:19:24 David B. Greenspan There was an additional it was in. 00:22:19:24 - 00:22:28:11 Stephanie Crain Addition, it creates weird loyalties and people I mean, as a as it trickles down, it really does like fact that culture is 100% financial. 00:22:28:11 - 00:22:59:10 Shaniqua Brown What's interesting that like our human behavior is getting a way of what we're all in business to do. You know, like we're driving profit revenue in business and here we are. There's like division within the organization. So I find that pretty interesting. So would you say is it like the lack of like listening deeply? Is it more like what is the root cause for these like instances where there's like, there's not alignment? 00:22:59:12 - 00:23:15:06 Stephanie Crain And I'm going to tack on her question and has business always been this way or is this something that's like, are we in a new era of business being more toxic? Like just from y'all's perspective, this is something that we've just never addressed and we're addressing now or is something that's gotten worse? 00:23:15:08 - 00:23:35:00 David B. Greenspan Well, you know, our book is called Be a Better Team by Friday. And I was telling somebody what the book was about. They ask, what's the book about? And I said, well, it's about, you know, how to how to work better together and how to collaborate even when you have different personality styles and different people that you know at various levels. 00:23:35:02 - 00:23:38:02 David B. Greenspan And they said, you mean the hard part about work? 00:23:38:04 - 00:23:39:18 Shaniqua Brown And then. 00:23:39:23 - 00:23:43:18 Justin Follin You know, I think that's that's really important 00:23:43:18 - 00:23:44:13 Justin Follin because 00:23:44:13 - 00:23:47:09 Justin Follin it is hard work and they call it soft. skills, that’s crazy. 00:23:47:11 - 00:23:48:19 Stephanie Crain hmm... 00:23:48:21 - 00:24:04:06 Justin Follin That's crazy. They're the hardest skills. How to work with people as much is much more challenging for the most brilliant engineers than than the code that they know. I mean, these are hard skills because human nature is that it's not that. 00:24:04:06 - 00:24:06:18 Justin Follin Here's the way to think is think about it. So 00:24:06:18 - 00:24:15:00 Justin Follin every person that's working in your organization, every single human being, has a desire to contribute. 00:24:15:02 - 00:24:33:05 Justin Follin It's it's almost like this innate drive that we all have. And when you're when you're really in an environment that aligns with that desire and you got the right mindsets and you got the right tools and you got the right people that you're working with, it brings something out that's extraordinary. It's those national champion basketball players becoming national champions. 00:24:33:10 - 00:25:06:04 Justin Follin Well, it’s happening in a marketing department, an engineering department in a developed in operations department, there's everyone has that in them when they're aligned with it. But what gets in the way of that is, first of all, our own inner mindsets and chatter and stuff that gets in the way. It's negativity, bias about ourselves, but then competing commitments with others inside of the organization, competing priorities, and a belief that those who we disagree with are just wrong. 00:25:06:04 - 00:25:06:17 Stephanie Crain 00:25:06:22 - 00:25:07:22 Stephanie Crain And that judgment of right or. 00:25:07:22 - 00:25:08:16 Justin Follin Wrong judgment. 00:25:08:16 - 00:25:11:09 Stephanie Crain Versus kind of being more open to perspective. 00:25:11:09 - 00:25:17:13 Justin Follin To really understanding that, yeah, if i'm working with Shaniqua and Shaniqua’s in HR and i'm in marketing, 00:25:17:13 - 00:25:32:04 Justin Follin my priorities are completely different than Shaniqua’s priorities. And so these head-to-head combats in silos are. No, I want to I want we need to do one thing that's going to support HR’s mission, and in marketing we're saying we've got to support something else. 00:25:32:04 - 00:25:33:22 Justin Follin So it naturally creates conflict. 00:25:33:22 - 00:26:09:11 Stephanie Crain So I always found that really interesting in business, and for my whole time being in business, I never really understood that mentality. I was raised in sports, I was raised on teams. The priority is the same, right? Right. The priority is to the customer. The priority is to the, you know, like what that. And so connecting people to their purpose within that priority, you know, to create those alignments, because I've worked in a lot of organizations where they were very siloed and intuitively on my own without being coached on my own, I would just go into these siloed groups. 00:26:09:11 - 00:26:25:19 Stephanie Crain I always like to talk about compliance, you know, being a department that was like hated and they were hated by marketing. And I was I was new to this environment. I didn't know what compliance was, so I just went and met with them. And every week I'd spend 4 hours with them and have them teach me about their department. 00:26:25:21 - 00:26:42:00 Stephanie Crain And then we formed processes and then all of a sudden it was like we weren't getting these red line documents back and we understood what compliance’s needs were and that they were protecting us and keeping us safe. And it was like, why so much discord? And I think a lot of that is like 00:26:42:00 - 00:27:00:17 Stephanie Crain businesses don't take the time to help individual departments really see that direct line connection to how they impact the customer, you know, how they impact the purpose or the why of what that business is doing and a way that they feel it, you know, and they don't feel like they're just like a cog in a machine. 00:27:00:17 - 00:27:07:14 Stephanie Crain And then they have to control their territory and they have to, you know, all of those things. So that yeah, I'm sorry, those fly. 00:27:07:15 - 00:27:12:03 Shaniqua Brown That's a great segue into the like adapt your works. 00:27:12:05 - 00:27:13:22 Justin Follin Yes. 00:27:13:24 - 00:27:22:09 Shaniqua Brown I'm just going to say this Justin, I felt called out when I was reading that. Oh, are you talking about me? 00:27:22:11 - 00:27:24:04 Shaniqua Brown I'll see you later. 00:27:24:06 - 00:27:53:07 Shaniqua Brown But I was telling Stephanie earlier that I felt called out because I've been wanting people to adapt to the way I communicate. And then I realize if I'm a leader, then I need to figure out how to connect to that individual, how to move it, what are their motivations, what are their whys and reach them. So I'm curious like how like do you work? 00:27:53:09 - 00:27:57:09 Shaniqua Brown What is the Adapt Your Work Style in your perspective? 00:27:57:15 - 00:28:15:13 Justin Follin Well, it's a great it's a great segue because we were working with a CEO who brought us in and said, “Can you just teach people how to communicate?” I can just teach them and, you know, I think that's kind of everybody, you know, everybody could just figure out how to get what I want. It'll be it'll be a much better place. 00:28:15:13 - 00:28:35:05 Justin Follin And I you know, my style is superior. That that's that's just kind of how we're all thinking. And that's why it can be sometimes kind of a wake up call and you realize, there's actually all these different styles that are equally important, that have strengths that our team needs. So we're working with this company and the CEO says, you know, can you teach my team how to how to communicate with me? 00:28:35:05 - 00:28:51:18 Justin Follin And so we brought in the Tilt and we weren't just going to only teach his team, we're going to teach teach him, we're going to teach his team. And so we worked with the Tilt’s. and what we found was he was what's called an Impact. So that's what you you both are saying he was more of an Impact style. 00:28:51:18 - 00:29:12:16 Justin Follin So more of an Impact style will prefer short, brief, three bullet point communications focusing on why we're doing this and what are the results we're going to get. That's what he was doing. And that makes for a good CEO, is good, CEOs are different styles, but a lot of times you'll find CEOs that kind of person, they're very forward thinking. 00:29:12:16 - 00:29:14:21 Justin Follin They want to make an impact and they want to go quickly. 00:29:14:21 - 00:29:39:05 Justin Follin His director of HR Is the director at the time. She was very Clarity oriented. So a Clarity oriented person is going be someone who does a lot of research. She's going to have a lot of data, and and she was making elegant ten-slide decks every time she went to go talk to him, and after 5 minutes, he would just completely zone out of those decks and then she would leave and she was totally disheartened. 00:29:39:07 - 00:29:41:07 David B. Greenspan You know, he’d be looking at his phone. 00:29:41:09 - 00:29:42:05 Stephanie Crain Totally checking out. Yeah. 00:29:42:09 - 00:29:45:24 David B. Greenspan I mean, really. Wow. Looking down, looking at the clock. 00:29:46:01 - 00:29:50:24 Stephanie Crain So it was kind of a know your audience situation. Like they didn't know each other as an audience. 00:29:50:24 - 00:30:00:06 Justin Follin And it's yeah, it's hard sometimes to really get that. So we worked with her to, you know, to really look at that, at that style difference. And 00:30:00:06 - 00:30:11:20 Justin Follin she was so the next time that she went in to talk to him, she made ten slides into two slides, three bullet points each walks in, they have a conversation. It lasts about 10 minutes. 00:30:11:20 - 00:30:30:21 Justin Follin They left. She says That was the best meeting that we've ever had. And he said that was the best meeting we've ever had. And then he got the report, the ten slide report sent afterwards. And so he now had to go through on his time and be able to study that so that he could figure out how to connect with her style. 00:30:30:21 - 00:30:31:08 Justin Follin So that's. 00:30:31:08 - 00:30:45:13 Stephanie Crain Great. So they're both getting their needs met and the situation. That's one thing that you said while you were describing that just made me question So what the the Tilt or with the personality test and the outcomes 00:30:45:13 - 00:30:59:01 Stephanie Crain you mentioned, you know, a lot of leaders tend to be this or that. Like is there I mean, can leaders be any like can leaders come from any part of the quadrant or is it really that some lean more of this or that? 00:30:59:01 - 00:31:00:16 Stephanie Crain Like, what's your experience with that? 00:31:00:18 - 00:31:02:04 David B. Greenspan We’ve seen CEOs in all and all the different quadrants. 00:31:02:04 - 00:31:03:01 Stephanie Crain In all the different quadrants. 00:31:03:02 - 00:31:24:15 David B. Greenspan And the idea is that you want to be agile or adaptable, that you actually want to be able to move depending on what's needed. Because at different times in the business, depending on where the business cycle is, you will you do need to change. So even the two of you being in Impact, there's times where you might have to intentionally tilt Structure or we might actually just slow down and move into Clarity and do some research more. 00:31:24:15 - 00:31:49:00 David B. Greenspan When you're doing outreach and where you need to tilt into Connection. And we even noticed that in interacting with you when you were talking to us, you were tilting, you know, Shaniqua, you were tilting Connection and making us feel welcome. And so you're you're naturally want to be in that agile place. What's valuable about the Tilt is noticing where our tendencies are and what your stress responses are, and also being able to understand others well. 00:31:49:02 - 00:32:07:16 David B. Greenspan Because if you can speak someone else's language, it makes a huge difference. And if you know it's important to them and this is like a cheat sheet, you know, it's like when you buy an electronics or something and like that gives you this huge I bought like a robot vacuum, you know, one of those Roombas and like, you know, I don't know, it's this huge instruction manual that I it's now it's a PDF. 00:32:07:16 - 00:32:12:03 David B. Greenspan They don't even give it to you anymore, you know. And I'm not going to look, but there comes like a one page like, okay, all. 00:32:12:03 - 00:32:12:21 Stephanie Crain You want here's. 00:32:12:24 - 00:32:34:00 David B. Greenspan Just like, here is how you turn it on, which is really all I know. And I still, you know, and like, that's all you care. Like, here's how you turn it on and whatever else you need. You know, this is sort of like that the tilt gives you. Here's a key of two or three things that if you understand, you're going to be able to really understand, like how do you work with someone well and what to do, what not to do. 00:32:34:00 - 00:32:40:20 Shaniqua Brown I have a question. How much of it is nature versus nurture, the Tilt, do you know? 00:32:40:22 - 00:32:48:08 David B. Greenspan Well, a piece of it is depending. You know, it's interesting. Environment definitely shapes the Tilt, 00:32:48:08 - 00:32:53:12 David B. Greenspan right. Because if depending on what a person is doing, their Tilt will look differently. 00:32:53:15 - 00:33:13:16 David B. Greenspan Like, like if you if I, if we are sitting down and doing our taxes, Impact style doesn't really help much. Like you actually have to slow down and you know be organized and, and, you know, so if you're building a house like I'm thinking about house, you need intentionally tilt Structure. If you're so again, people's Tilts can actually change. 00:33:13:16 - 00:33:18:24 David B. Greenspan Pam Boney, who's the founder of Tilt and she's a friend of ours. 00:33:18:24 - 00:33:29:23 David B. Greenspan She was saying that actually your tilt can even change every 90 days and that particularly if you're an intelligent, you're going to naturally start adapting because that's just what's needed. 00:33:30:00 - 00:33:57:16 Stephanie Crain It's not Tilt, you know, I'm taking a lot of personality tests, and the Myers-Briggs test is obviously one that a lot of people are familiar with. And when I take it at work, I always come out “J” and when I take it at home I come out “P” and it's I've done it so many times just to test it. But I do believe that that environmental element does play a role in terms of like how you're showing up and the energy that you're bringing forward, you know, and those environments like what's going to be useful, I think, to your needs, definitely. 00:33:57:20 - 00:34:00:15 Stephanie Crain So yeah, that's interesting that the Tilt has that 00:34:00:15 - 00:34:09:12 Stephanie Crain capacity to be able to like really depending on where you're at and kind of the head space you're in and also the energy space you're in really impacts the outcome. 00:34:09:16 - 00:34:24:14 David B. Greenspan I think it's very valuable also to realize that we're adaptable. Yeah, because I think a lot of people resist being put in a box because. Because we're all bigger than that, right? We are. And the idea that and the idea that, yeah, of course you can move and you know, you're not like frozen in time. Like this is the only way you are. 00:34:24:14 - 00:34:27:00 David B. Greenspan You have a lot of aspects of yourself, right? 00:34:27:02 - 00:34:35:02 Stephanie Crain A lot of when I work with my clients, I work with persona archetypes and the idea that, you know, we can sort of access any energy, there's just certain energies. We're more comfortable. 00:34:35:03 - 00:34:36:04 David B. Greenspan Exactly. Exactly. 00:34:36:04 - 00:34:47:14 Stephanie Crain Yeah. So, yeah, I agree with that adaptability is key. And I think for leadership, especially, the more adaptable you become, the more you're open to perspective because it allows more in, I think. 00:34:47:16 - 00:34:52:11 Shaniqua Brown I to want to know what are your Tilt results. 00:34:52:14 - 00:34:56:02 Stephanie Crain Yeah. How do you all Tilt? >Shaniqua: Clarity, Structure. 00:34:56:04 - 00:34:58:22 Justin Follin Yeah. 00:34:58:24 - 00:35:00:06 Stephanie Crain Is that secret? 00:35:00:08 - 00:35:01:22 Shaniqua Brown yeah. Yeah. 00:35:01:24 - 00:35:13:16 David B. Greenspan No, no, it's not secret. So, you know, so you have sort of two styles, right? You sort of have a primary to open a secondary Tilt And so I, so I'm Connection Impact. yeah, those are my styles 00:35:13:18 - 00:35:26:19 Justin Follin And my styles are Impact Structure. And I want to, I do want to say one thing about the nature nurture thing and also because we're talking about styles, leadership styles and innovation, you know, these are all adaptable we can all have different strengths. 00:35:26:19 - 00:35:51:03 Justin Follin But one thing that I do find interesting is there's something called the stress response. And each of these Tilt styles has its own stress response. And now while we can be adaptable with all the strengths, almost always when I describe the stress response, that's where someone will be like, that's me, you know? So for instance, me being an Impact person, I'm all about Go, let's get make it happen. 00:35:51:03 - 00:36:18:23 Justin Follin But when I get stressed out, I get really omnipotent, I know everything and I don't want to hear anything else. And I'm not the most pleasant person in the room because I am. I know that we need to move forward and I can kind of tune everything else out and get that kind of controlling. If I'm in my Structure, a Structure Tilt can be very micromanaging and a Clarity person is very focused on research and data. 00:36:19:00 - 00:36:28:01 Justin Follin They go into analysis paralysis and they they just cannot, you know, they can't make a decision and then a Connection person kind of checks out and sort of goes into a daze. 00:36:28:01 - 00:36:28:15 Stephanie Crain Disconnects. 00:36:28:20 - 00:36:48:03 Justin Follin Disconnects. And a lot of times you don't even realize you're in a stress response. You think it's important if you're a Clarity person in your analysis paralysis, you're like, No, we have to think about all of these these details. We haven't thought about enough questions, and you're stopping that moving forward. Likewise with an Impact person like know, if you just listen to me, we'd move a lot faster. 00:36:48:03 - 00:36:49:18 Justin Follin That that's a stress response. 00:36:49:20 - 00:37:04:16 Stephanie Crain I think that awareness is when we talk about building those soft skills, really developing that emotional intelligence and understanding like what's going on in your body and being able to identify that before you're actually responding. Right. Going into that reaction mode. 00:37:04:18 - 00:37:05:08 David B. Greenspan Absolutely. 00:37:05:08 - 00:37:26:20 Stephanie Crain Take a beat, understand like, oh wow, this energy is coming up inside me and this is what this means now. And I know what this means and I know it's probably not going to get my needs met because I'm going to just, you know, bust out. And I think that that awareness is sort of what helps people, you know, develop that ability to just respond instead of I don't like to use the word trigger. 00:37:26:20 - 00:37:35:09 Stephanie Crain I really like this word activate, you know, to just get activated in a particular way emotionally that they don't feel empowered by. You know. 00:37:35:11 - 00:37:38:22 Justin Follin And I think we're working in environments that are extremely stressful. 00:37:38:22 - 00:37:39:09 Stephanie Crain Yeah, they are. 00:37:39:13 - 00:37:56:06 Justin Follin I mean, this isn't it's it's not that people are getting stressed out because they're somehow less capable. It's actually that the environments that they're working in, especially our companies that we're working in, if they're growing really fast and the the pressure on the teams that are working inside these companies is getting higher and higher. 00:37:56:06 - 00:38:22:15 Justin Follin And the complexities of the challenges grow as more people get added to the organization. So it's not that people are are bad at this because, you know, they should be better. It's that almost anyone is going to start getting stressed inside of these environments. And so what you're talking about with self-awareness and the practice around understanding what's happening in your your physical experience can be really helpful to modulate the stress responses. 00:38:22:15 - 00:38:27:19 Justin Follin And we recommend mindfulness practice and practicing meditation of some kind to help. 00:38:27:22 - 00:38:47:00 Stephanie Crain We talk about business ethos a lot and the the foundations of ethos are logos and pathos. And of course, in business, logos, logos takes the prize right, like we're very logic driven. We put everything in boxes, we try to structure our, you know, we say like process takes away all emotion, right? If you can build a process, you don't need an emotion. 00:38:47:02 - 00:39:09:20 Stephanie Crain And I think we've just gotten to a point where we've pushed that to its limit and. Ethos, you know, requires pathos. We have to have that emotional intelligence to balance our logic. You know, that's where intuition comes from. That's where we develop that true intuition, where we're bringing an energetic information along with our knowledge and wisdom and all of that that we carry. 00:39:09:22 - 00:39:34:06 Stephanie Crain We get that integrated and then we become, I just think, stronger, more clear. I'm curious. We're really we're actually running it. This is been like, we can probably do a two hour podcast on this. I kind of want you all to come back again for like part two because I feel like we've got 27 more questions. But are there some final thoughts that maybe you could leave us with in terms of bringing innovation out in your own business? 00:39:34:06 - 00:39:46:16 Stephanie Crain You know, like what leaders can be doing right now to be looking at helping their businesses become more innovative or for themselves, you know, to help their businesses become more innovative. I was wondering if there's anything that you might want to add to that. 00:39:46:18 - 00:40:13:04 David B. Greenspan You know, one thing that every anyone do, whether you're running a company or whether you're working in a company, if you just did one thing, it's it's practicing listening tours where you're going out your listening to to people, you're asking what's going well, what's in the way, asking for feedback about yourself. What's one thing, one piece of advice that you have for me about how I could be better? 00:40:13:06 - 00:40:36:05 David B. Greenspan And it's framed that way because a lot of times your subordinates are might be intimidated. But if you just say, what's one piece of advice they can give you that? What's the highest... If we're working at our highest possible level, what would that look like? And really then practicing, listening to understand, you know, you mentioned some of that. 00:40:36:08 - 00:41:05:11 David B. Greenspan The challenge is sort of like politically and sort of just like what's going on in our larger environment. And there is a lack of trust right now in institutions and in political institutions, but really in all institutions, even in companies, there's less trust and there's ever been before. And one of the ways that you can begin to build that trust is to really practice listening, to understand, just like your story when you went and we're talking to compliance, you were actually in there with sort of a beginner's mind listening to understand you didn't have an agenda. 00:41:05:11 - 00:41:26:16 David B. Greenspan It didn't matter that your role might have been know higher than some of those people. You basically were just coming in and saying, teach me, I want to I want to understand. And that built tremendous amounts of relationship that then allowed dissolves a lot of conflict and allowed you to the business to be more innovative. So a lot of the way that you get access to the innovation and the creativity is by listening. 00:41:26:21 - 00:41:50:07 David B. Greenspan And once you have that open line, then people can say, Hey, you know something that I'm I know I'm new here, but now you're saying it doesn't make sense to me. That I think could be a lot. There's a faster way to do this. People are having those conversations, but they're not having them oftentimes with the leaders of with the you know, with the CEO and the executive team, they usually might have it with their spouse, their friend. 00:41:50:07 - 00:42:07:01 David B. Greenspan They might on a lunch break. It's not stupid that we do it this way. It would be so much faster. We were wasting so much money on here. Why don't we do this? So when you start listening to understand and start practicing these listening tours winds up happening is now you get to hear those conversations. And some of those conversations come from brand new employees. 00:42:07:03 - 00:42:32:09 David B. Greenspan Some of them come from people that have been there for a long time. Some of them come from a department that doesn't actually know that much about another department, and it can come from anywhere. And this allows you to be a part of that dialog and a part of that conversation. And so it becomes a lot more free flowing rather than just like people are having an innovative conversation over here or over here. 00:42:32:09 - 00:42:42:18 Stephanie Crain Yeah, I love that idea of a listening tour like, it's just kind of scoping your whole environment, being present. I think that's very important. 00:42:42:18 - 00:42:44:09 Shaniqua Brown Justin, I’m on the edge of my seat. 00:42:44:13 - 00:42:45:13 Stephanie Crain I know. 00:42:45:15 - 00:42:47:11 Justin Follin Well. 00:42:47:13 - 00:42:58:05 Justin Follin You know, I was thinking your podcast is called From Illumination To Innovation, and I, I did want to hear more about illumination. I think illumination is an interesting idea. 00:42:58:05 - 00:42:59:10 Justin Follin Yeah. Did you run that same. 00:42:59:10 - 00:43:44:14 Stephanie Crain Yeah. So originally, you know, I do what I, what I call shadow work and I specifically work with companies on what I call Brand Shadows. So the things that they don't like to describe or they don't, you know, they want to maybe market their way out of a situation or know, just avoid dealing with. And so for me, illumination is about illuminating that shadow and bringing things into the light that we can't really truly innovate and solve problems if we're avoiding things that oftentimes those are the things that activate us unexpectedly or create challenges, you know, where we have behavior patterns, where we're like, why does the same thing just keep happening to me over 00:43:44:14 - 00:44:00:09 Stephanie Crain again? And you know, why? Why does our company just not move forward in this particular way? So for me, illumination is really about illuminating that shadow so that we can innovate, so that we can be more open and, you know, free. 00:44:00:11 - 00:44:11:24 Justin Follin Well, what I was going to talk about is directly related to that, illuminating the shadow. And it you know, in a team environment, there are, there’s what we're saying to each other and then there's what we're not saying to each other. 00:44:11:24 - 00:44:12:13 Stephanie Crain Yeah. 00:44:12:15 - 00:44:18:17 Justin Follin And a lot of times what's not being said to each other is being said after three years. 00:44:18:19 - 00:44:19:11 Stephanie Crain Yes., it is. 00:44:19:11 - 00:44:21:17 Justin Follin In after work with other people. 00:44:21:19 - 00:44:26:01 Stephanie Crain Or on or on some online forum where it's being published. 00:44:26:04 - 00:44:32:05 David B. Greenspan And hopefully we're at a point we're still in the beer conversation. So happy. 00:44:32:05 - 00:44:32:18 Justin Follin Hour before. 00:44:32:18 - 00:44:36:21 Stephanie Crain It gets to Glassdoor But, you know, Glassdoor changed things for businesses in a lot of ways. 00:44:36:21 - 00:44:58:09 Justin Follin It did so, you know, and I think on for instance, in executive team, you've got your “saids” and your “unsaids” and there's a lot of elephants in the room that people can't say. And, you know, we like to say that that you can go from a level one conversation which is nice and everyone's just being polite to level ten, which is the unsaids are being said. 00:44:58:10 - 00:45:14:19 Justin Follin The things that really need to be talked about are really being talked about. It's the moment that we're in front of a room and I'm saying, okay, y’all what is the level of conversation we're having right now? And everyone raises their hand and they show us six and they say, okay, well, what needs to be said to get us to a level ten? 00:45:14:19 - 00:45:19:05 David B. Greenspan And it's really quiet and nobody wants to talk until finally someone says, 00:45:19:05 - 00:45:39:06 David B. Greenspan the reason we can't get anything done is because the CEO is controlling every aspect of our work. And when the room is quiet after that, there is an opportunity for two things to happen. One, the CEO can jump in and defend herself/himself and can say “That's absolutely not true!” 00:45:39:08 - 00:46:07:14 Justin Follin You know, here's why that's not right. Or the CEO can say, “Wow, I did not know that.” and welcome the environment to create psychological safety, to be able to have this level ten conversation where we can actually say what we see is going on. And so when you can start having a level ten, as you're talking about the shadow stuff, that's that's not being said, it comes up and it's my experience often it evaporates and that actually creates a clearing for a new kind of conversation. 00:46:07:14 - 00:46:12:11 Justin Follin And that's why people will say that we work with them. It's like a breath of fresh air. They couldn't breathe until now. 00:46:12:12 - 00:46:21:11 Stephanie Crain The shadow is always scarier than you think it is and always is. And, and yeah, I agree with that. It does evaporate once it's finally out and exposed 00:46:21:14 - 00:46:22:12 Justin Follin and welcomed. 00:46:22:12 - 00:46:24:01 Justin Follin And it really has to be welcomed. 00:46:24:01 - 00:46:45:17 Stephanie Crain Yeah, well there's a lot of power and energy in that shadow that's valuable. It's like, you know, even though it may be creating challenges, there's a lot of information and energy there to work with. And so when it's revealed, it really does create opportunity, It really does create possibilities that weren't there before. They just simply weren't there or they couldn't be seen. 00:46:45:19 - 00:47:14:21 David B. Greenspan And it's part of also what engages the workforce because all because you can feel it, right? You can feel like if you feel stuck when you walk into a workplace, you can sort of get the sense that something, and if it's open, if there isn't, if people are having those honest conversations, if if you can speak up, if you can be your full self and you know, and be a human being and make mistakes and can learn, yeah, then it's very attractive to employees and they want to stay there. 00:47:14:21 - 00:47:23:05 David B. Greenspan Like, this feels great. I like I like being at work. I had a great this made me feel I can bring my whole self I can I actually can contribute. 00:47:23:05 - 00:47:39:08 Stephanie Crain We call it vibrating higher. Like our goal is to help businesses vibrate because you can feel that energy. Yeah. Vibration vibrating. Really working like that. Yeah that low vibration energy can feel that to. And when you think. 00:47:39:10 - 00:48:00:15 Shaniqua Brown I am overwhelmed with just a positive, this positive experience with you, you too. I think that we should wrap things up now so but thank you so much for joining us today. I feel that this conversation is very illuminating for me regarding, you know, the 00:48:00:15 - 00:48:07:12 Shaniqua Brown this leadership style of it seems like more accountability in ownership, and then that trickles down into the organization. 00:48:07:12 - 00:48:15:05 Shaniqua Brown So thanks so much for your time. And this was a great read or I listen to it on Audible. 00:48:15:07 - 00:48:27:24 Stephanie Crain I'm reading it, I've got it book marked. I'm just really quick before we wrap up. If people want to follow y'all, learn more about y'all can you give some details on how people can keep track of what y'all are doing? 00:48:28:03 - 00:48:32:24 Justin Follin Yeah, our our book Be a Better Team by Friday is on Amazon. 00:48:32:24 - 00:48:43:03 Justin Follin Our company website is bluecase.com. My name is Justin Follin and I'm on LinkedIn at Justin Follin and David. 00:48:43:03 - 00:48:49:01 David B. Greenspan And I'm David B Greenspan and I'm connected to the Blue Case LinkedIn as well so you can find me there. 00:48:49:03 - 00:48:56:19 Stephanie Crain Excellent Thank you so much for joining us today and bringing your wisdom. We really, really appreciate. 00:48:56:19 - 00:48:59:14 David B. Greenspan Thank you both. Yeah, thank you for having us. Thanks for having us. It is a pleasure. 00:48:59:17 - 00:49:00:09 Shaniqua Brown Thank you. 00:49:00:09 - 00:49:10:20 Shaniqua Thanks for listening to our show. Show us your support by following us on your favorite podcast platform, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:49:10:22 - 00:49:28:13 Stephanie You can also find us on Castos. From-Illumination-To-Innovation.Castos.com. If you love our show, share it with your friends and coworkers too. Let's all work together to help businesses vibrate higher.