HR: Friend or Foe? - Ep 2 of 5 of FITI HR Series: The Good, the Bad, and the Potential

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:00:00 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:11 Stephanie You're listening to From Illumination To Innovation, a revealing and provocative exploration of the rapidly shifting landscape of values, purpose, leadership and culture, both corporate and social. I'm your host, Stephanie Crain. 00:00:15:13 - 00:00:31:18 Shaniqua And I'm your host, Shaniqua Brown. We're excited to have you join us as we shine a light on new perspectives, amplify voices of influence, and elevate bright ideas that will expand your idea of what's possible in business and beyond. 00:00:31:18 - 00:00:32:06 00:00:32:06 - 00:00:47:03 Stephanie Hi everybody, and welcome to another episode of From Illumination To Innovation. My name is Stephanie Crain, and I'm one of your co-hosts and the owner of Tapas Innovation. Also the Corporate Mystic. 00:00:47:05 - 00:01:17:08 Shaniqua And I'm your co-host Shaniqua Brown, the founder of Elevated TA and, today we're discussing. our topic for today is “HR Friend or Foe?” And we are here with the fabulous Lisa Novak. I met Lisa at HR Disrupt last year, and she was the first person that ever just came up to me, gave me her business card, and told me to reach out to her. 00:01:17:08 - 00:01:40:21 Shaniqua And I was I'm a little timid and thought “oh, there's no way she would want me to reach out.” And I emailed her and sure enough, she one, remembered me. Remembered why she wanted to connect with me and has been so gracious with her time, her wisdom. And I also pinned her to be my mentor. One of my mentors, Lisa Novak. 00:01:40:21 - 00:01:43:10 Shaniqua I'm just so happy that you're here with us today. 00:01:43:11 - 00:01:53:19 Lisa I'm so happy to be here with you both today too. We've had such joy getting to know each other over the short time that we have. I think it's funny that you call yourself shy and timid, because 00:01:53:19 - 00:01:54:00 Stephanie I know 00:01:54:00 - 00:02:00:13 Lisa what drew me to you is this ball of energy that I knew I needed to be associated with in the first place. 00:02:00:13 - 00:02:04:20 Lisa So it is my pleasure to get to be a friend. 00:02:04:22 - 00:02:08:21 Stephanie I just I had to bite my tongue too, I'm sorry, but like, I don't. 00:02:08:21 - 00:02:11:01 Stephanie Know, I. 00:02:11:01 - 00:02:11:10 Shaniqua Was just like. 00:02:11:13 - 00:02:14:23 Lisa Alter ego is apparently the shy person we don't know yet. 00:02:15:01 - 00:02:37:22 Shaniqua She's like, oh my gosh, is she really let me reach out to her? But I think that I did. So glad I did. And so today is actually Stephanie. and I, we were planning this episode and I told her I know the perfect person that will bring this episode home. so this episode, “HR: Friend or Foe?” is inspired by Stephanie's video. 00:02:37:22 - 00:02:38:22 Shaniqua Tell everyone about your video. 00:02:39:02 - 00:02:40:17 Stephanie So my video 00:02:40:17 - 00:02:57:00 Corporate Mystic I don't care how kind your H.R. rep is. H.R. is not your friend. They work for the company, not for you. This often creates some confusion because H.R. is typically who welcomes you into the organization, and they're often the last people you speak with before you leave your 00:02:57:00 - 00:03:12:14 Corporate Mystic This creates comp in an almost no win situation for people in HR and for the employees themselves. What's worse, organizational leaders often look to H.R. to cultivate and sustain culture within the organization, making the lines even more blurred. As an employee, 00:03:12:19 - 00:03:54:23 Stephanie First of all, I just want to start off by proclaiming my professed love for HR people. And, and all the hard work that they do. you know, my video is really interesting, and it came out fairly early into my process. really entering the social media influencer space. And I was working with a team, and of course they were helping me develop strategies, and they were helping me to develop the content that would, you know, kind of promote the message that I wanted to promote, which is really talking about toxic cultures and workplaces, how we can heal, and things of that and leadership, things of that nature. 00:03:55:01 - 00:04:23:03 Stephanie And they came to me with this particular video, and the hook on the video was, HR is Not Your Friend. And I'm I'm not gonna lie. My response was, I pushed back. I said, I don't want to put that out. And this was very early in the process. And they had really asked me to, you know, trust them to work with them, that they were going to be testing a lot of things at this point, and not everything was going to be kind of what this ongoing strategy. 00:04:23:05 - 00:04:57:18 Stephanie And I you know, I looked at the, inspo video that they gave, which I'm, you know, I won't identify it, but it was terrible. And the messaging was really terrible. HR is Not Your Friend is a clickbait hook. I'm not going to lie about that. I'm not going to pretend that it's not what it is. and I, you know, I went ahead and I, I allowed them to use it and tried to adapt my message more and aligned with what I felt like was important, which is about the system of corporate business and what it does to the HR department. 00:04:57:20 - 00:05:30:06 Stephanie it didn't change the fact that the hook is still the hook. So it certainly emotionally activated a lot of people. And, you know, there were a lot of HR people that disagreed with me, but, I picked up three HR clients off of that video. There were a lot of people who agreed with me a lot, actually, and there were a lot of people who agreed to and, you know, my team asked me if they could put it back out again and I wouldn't let them, but I also didn't take it down. 00:05:30:08 - 00:05:50:23 Stephanie You know, I felt like it needed to stand on its own. There's a it's got, over five thousands of comments on it and, they're they come from a lot of different points of view. And I think it's an important conversation that needs to be had. any future videos I do on will be less clickbaity, you know, when it comes to that. 00:05:50:23 - 00:05:58:15 Stephanie But it was a learning experience and I don't regret the experience. I definitely opened up a conversation. 00:05:58:17 - 00:06:21:09 Lisa I think that's it right there. It was the start of a conversation. And this is a conversation that should be had. And when a a kick off point of a conversation has both positive and negative reaction, that drives a conversation. And this is a valid conversation to have. So beyond the clickbait, what you did was, was instigate a conversation. 00:06:21:09 - 00:06:23:04 Lisa And and that brought us here today. Right. 00:06:23:05 - 00:06:45:05 Stephanie It did, it did. And I'm so happy to have you here to really get your insight and perspective, you know, because I feel I have ambivalence about it. I feel a lot of different ways about it. You know, I don't I don't just kind of firmly fall into this space of defense. I'm really open minded, and I really want to expand the perspective for everybody. 00:06:45:05 - 00:07:04:09 Lisa And I don't think the answer is one or the other. I don't think it's, Is H.R. your friend yes or no question by any means. Here's the thing. Wouldn't it be so cool if corporations, if organizations if companies could afford to pay for your friends? 00:07:04:11 - 00:07:23:03 Lisa That'd be neat, And I really like that. I think that that would change the way people operate. I think that would change how organizations activate and what they do and what they provide and how people, ultimately produce for their companies because you're fulfilling their happiness Cup. But it doesn't work that way. 00:07:23:03 - 00:07:25:07 Stephanie No it doesn't. 00:07:25:09 - 00:07:29:20 Lisa companies don't have the budget for it. And if they did, they'd put it in marketing instead. 00:07:29:22 - 00:07:35:08 Stephanie My you know, my first question back to my team was, I'm sorry, but who in business is your friend? That was one of my. 00:07:35:08 - 00:07:35:23 Lisa And that's what it. 00:07:35:23 - 00:07:36:13 Stephanie Boils down. 00:07:36:13 - 00:08:08:12 Lisa To. We don't expect, I think, because we impact the the role of human resources, can have a direct touch or impact to all of the humans that are in the organization. There's this expectation that that impact not only must always be positive, but also must always be the human resources team or person's responsibility. and, and that doesn't that kind of of human pressure doesn't fall on any other department. 00:08:08:14 - 00:08:39:05 Shaniqua Right. Like, when we talk about company core values, it isn't just HR’s responsibility, one to create them, you know, that should come up from leadership. But two, to then, like, only uphold themselves, I guess should be the companies everyone within the company should uphold the core values, you know. So I do find it very interesting. Like you, you're both saying, like there isn't any other department in an organization where you would say, well, you know, engineering is definitely my friend or no, they're not my friend. 00:08:39:05 - 00:08:54:02 Shaniqua And, you know, everyone serves has a role in a company that serves a business. So to see that HR serving the business, I mean, yeah, you're absolutely correct. So does like engineering. So does marketing. So does sales like everyone. 00:08:54:04 - 00:08:55:05 Lisa That's for success. 00:08:55:09 - 00:08:56:23 Shaniqua So the business. 00:08:57:01 - 00:09:27:02 Stephanie You got it. My experience with both positive and not so positive HR situations is that it always comes back to the culture of the organization I’m in. Like 100% of the time, if an toxic leaders will hire people to uphold them, you know, and what they're doing. And if you're in a toxic environment and and I don't think that the whole business world is toxic either. 00:09:27:02 - 00:09:56:00 Stephanie I think that there's a lot of great companies out there doing great things. And but I think that the toxic business that happens out there is so damaging and has such an impact, both on business and individuals, that it just shouldn't be tolerated, period. Right. Like we're beyond that point a tolerating it. And so I do think when you're in an environment where that leadership is really toxic and a lot of people have experienced that, where HR is sort of what I call mis positioned, they're just mis positioned by the organization. 00:09:56:00 - 00:10:12:03 Stephanie And it's, you know, it's really not the HR as an individual person or even as a department. It's more what that organization is utilizing their resources. It's no different than an organization telling marketing, hey, we need you to market your our way out of this problem that we just created. 00:10:12:04 - 00:10:15:02 Lisa To get a million qualified leads. You don't get a budget to do it exactly. 00:10:15:02 - 00:10:16:19 Stephanie It's it's like they're asking. 00:10:16:20 - 00:10:35:15 Lisa Go make all of our people happy. We can't give you any of the tools to do it. And also, we're not creating an environment that really cultivates a happy place and and supports happiness of our employees. And by the way, we're having the worst layoffs over the course of the last 11 months that we've seen in years and years. 00:10:35:17 - 00:10:37:11 Lisa And who are the people hit? 00:10:37:12 - 00:10:38:13 Stephanie And our CEO very. 00:10:38:13 - 00:10:39:08 Lisa Often that just. 00:10:39:08 - 00:10:40:20 Stephanie Got huge bonuses. 00:10:41:00 - 00:10:43:15 And I'm sorry. I mean, that's. 00:10:43:15 - 00:11:17:05 Lisa Not always the case. I know, I know and even the good guys. Right, even even right folks who who mean well, who are well-intended. but the market is shifted and all that frenzy hiring they did the previous two years has come to a head, which I believe a lot of the HR people warned about. and, and, and then we've gone through these layoffs in this rough time and we have to cut budgets and, and so the, the HR team and other team members get laid off and, and there's almost, it's interesting because we get an effect to the HR team. 00:11:17:07 - 00:11:25:20 Lisa Here we go again. These bad guys doing the layoffs. Well guess what. We're the teams who get hit the hardest typically in a selfless. Exactly. 00:11:25:22 - 00:11:26:20 Stephanie you have to lay everybody else. 00:11:26:20 - 00:12:05:17 Lisa And and there's this somehow because we're the communicators for a company, there's the perception that we're also the decision makers. And that goes right back to exactly what you're saying. We're here supporting in the best way we can the decisions of a company, as well as the culture of a company and whatever that means. and so there's almost an expectation that if we can't support a company in the way that we would want to, while the HR people should be this altruistic, perfect, ability to, to drive that kind of change, and if not, they should go to a place that has that. 00:12:05:22 - 00:12:14:16 Lisa Well you too, we need jobs, too. So, you know, it's a company job, just like that engineering job you were talking about earlier. 00:12:14:21 - 00:12:31:18 Shaniqua Lisa, I'm curious, if you could expound upon like, what are HR like, core responsibilities? Because I think that there's a lot of employees out there that don't really know what their HR team does. 00:12:31:21 - 00:12:34:09 Stephanie They know facets of it. But, not the big. 00:12:34:09 - 00:12:56:00 Lisa Yeah. What's the gist and what's the what's the critical stuff? The wheels on the bus things. you know, it's interesting. I'm going to depart from your question and then go back to it. several years ago, people started changing the names of human resources departments because it has this, this negative connotation, which, as we've already discussed, is kind of ironic. 00:12:56:02 - 00:13:12:01 Lisa but we wanted to disassociate with the concept of HR because those were the those were the people who fire people. Those were the negative things. So we've come up with the people team and employee experience. And by the way, I jumped right into that. Yeah, yeah, I like that idea too. This is what we want to provide. 00:13:12:03 - 00:13:34:23 Lisa but I was talking to a CRO several years ago about this exact subject, and he said, oh gosh, I just hate the term human resources. It feels so mechanical, like human. I and I stopped him and said, that's because you're thinking of us. You think of the phrase of human resources as humans, as resources. We are mechanized. 00:13:35:00 - 00:13:58:22 Lisa We are robots and the people. They're just resources within that company. I think of human resources as the resources for the people. and that's what H.R. does. So going back to your question, what's the foundation of what H.R. does? We provide resources for our people, given the constraints that we are given by our organization, given the restraints that we are given by our organization. 00:13:59:00 - 00:14:18:18 Lisa So we only have that that ability, the ability to do or spend or activate in the way that our organization allows or budgets, etc. for us, the core things that have to happen, I think, you know, some of the main ones, right. You can probably guess what's the one. What do you want your H.R. Team to do for you every other week? 00:14:18:20 - 00:14:19:07 Stephanie Pay, you. 00:14:19:07 - 00:14:22:00 Lisa That's right. 00:14:22:02 - 00:14:24:22 Shaniqua I want to get back. I'm going to just call out that I was lost on that one. 00:14:24:23 - 00:14:25:20 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:25:22 - 00:14:27:22 Shaniqua I think well, I got two, I. 00:14:27:22 - 00:14:29:00 Stephanie One. I'm sorry. 00:14:29:00 - 00:14:32:23 Lisa I don't work. It's hard enough that you're not used to payroll anymore. Yeah. 00:14:33:23 - 00:15:00:12 Lisa So yeah, every employee wants that paycheck, and and human resources is responsible. Sometimes the, payroll processing falls into an accounting or finance function, but human resources is responsible for making sure that information is input into the system, that we know what we're paying. our team members when we're supposed to pay them. So the payroll responsibility is, is certainly, foundational, managing the benefits that go along with that compensation. 00:15:00:12 - 00:15:37:18 Lisa Right. It's the total package. It's your health care coverage. It's those other ancillary benefits that, the human resources team, develops within our constrained budget to provide the best thing possible given the the demographics and the needs of the actual team members. so I would say those are some of the keys that is table stakes. for human resources, the additional components are really the evolution and the development of both the company and the people that that are, building that company and supporting that company. 00:15:37:20 - 00:16:08:11 Lisa So that's everything from, employee relations, learning and development. you know, those, talent acquisition and talent management, providing growth opportunities within the organization where we can, providing mental health opportunities, providing a positive not just the culture, because every single human being within an organization and every single role in capacity drives and develops the culture, whether we want that to be a part of our role or not. 00:16:08:11 - 00:16:30:13 Lisa You are the culture of your organization. It is the collective of every single human in the organization that creates the culture, but trying to cultivate it in a positive way, primarily through, communication. Positive communication around the company. And, and I say positive, but I'm going to step back from what I just said and say true, real, honest communication around the company is what we want to strive for. 00:16:30:14 - 00:16:48:11 Stephanie That's right. That makes sense. One thing you said at the beginning, when you were talking about the kind of that perspective of human resources, and somebody mentioned it to me in a context of why doesn't they ask the question to me and I? And so I'll just pose the question to you. I didn't really have the answer, but the idea of like, why? 00:16:48:13 - 00:16:58:23 Stephanie To the degree that humans are a business resource functionally, I mean, there's, a bottom line dollar associated with that. It's a managed resource. 00:16:58:23 - 00:17:02:12 Lisa Literally a contract agreement. We will tell you this amount if you will deliver this thing. 00:17:02:12 - 00:17:24:04 Stephanie And why not put that they were they reference that as human asset management. And why not put that in the CFO function and then leave everything else in human resources so that you can actually be that and not have that sort of perspective? And exactly. And I my answer is I don't even know if that's possible. Like, I don't even know if that is something that is functionally possible in a business. 00:17:24:06 - 00:17:47:14 Stephanie But what I mean, just from your perspective of there are a lot of people that hold that perception. and, and there are a lot of companies who have given people reason to feel that way, you know, who have made them feel like they are disposable or, you know, replaceable or what have you. And, you know, a lot of that goes into culture. 00:17:47:16 - 00:17:52:04 Stephanie and so I just your thoughts on that and just what, you know, how you would respond. 00:17:52:06 - 00:18:21:01 Lisa Yeah. The concept of humans as resources and, and isn't it just a tactical function and a contract role, if you will, that employment agreement. So at the baseline, sure it is. what organizations want to do is figure out ways to get the most and the best for the longest amount of time out of those humans as resources. 00:18:21:01 - 00:18:25:21 Lisa Right. And to do that, it needs to be more than beyond. It needs to go beyond that contract. 00:18:25:23 - 00:18:51:22 Shaniqua and I, I will say to to piggyback off of that is, I think this is another area where we can illuminate where H.R. does work with finance, because in talent acquisition, talent management for the HR, BP and the, you know, the recruiter is partnering with finance on, you know, that because finance has the budget and we are usually, sharing with educating finance. 00:18:51:22 - 00:18:57:23 Shaniqua I'm like, what is the market data for salary. Yeah. so so what. 00:18:57:23 - 00:19:01:22 Lisa Are the trends changing in benefits. Those have cost associated with them as we're. 00:19:01:22 - 00:19:04:15 Stephanie Helping finance make these decisions on how to budget. 00:19:04:15 - 00:19:15:08 Shaniqua And when, like the pacing of hiring. Great. So, I think that it does exist, but in a cross-functional capacity. 00:19:15:10 - 00:19:42:06 Stephanie I've worked in organizations where HR directly reported into finance versus where HR sort of has their own leadership structure equal to finance. so what is your perspective on that? well, you know, I know that a lot of times in smaller organizations, that's the and then as they grow and expand, but when HR really does have a seat at the leadership table, what does that how does that look different than when they don't? 00:19:43:05 - 00:20:05:10 Lisa That's an excellent question and kind of one of my favorite topics of discussion. one of the key roles, as we were talking about earlier, when you get past those table stakes, when you get past the wheels on the bus, a key role is to act as both an advisor and an advocate upward. And if we've got that blocked, we are no longer advocating for the team members. 00:20:05:12 - 00:20:33:01 Lisa right. If if it's if it's a financial lead, they're advocating for the budget, for the revenue for the, investments, etc.. And, and that eliminates where the truth of advocation for the employees and the team members comes from them. So that is it's a gap they're allowing themselves to create at the executive level. it is common. 00:20:33:01 - 00:20:47:05 Lisa Now, I'm also going to say I've worked at plenty of companies with lovely CFOs who wanted to be advocates who were driving that voice upward. Yeah, but that's the risk we're putting ourselves at if if H.R. is not at the table. 00:20:47:07 - 00:20:49:23 Stephanie That makes sense. That does make sense. 00:20:50:01 - 00:21:16:15 Shaniqua So I, I guess, like I'm curious because it seemed like with Stephanie's post that you were able to, like a lot of HR employees have been connecting with that post And I do feel like we're living in, a place thanks to the massive layoffs and restructuring in organizations where HR is a target. my question is twofold. 00:21:16:17 - 00:21:31:21 Shaniqua Like what would be advice that you would or recommendations that you would give to employees to understand HR better? And then what wisdom would you pass on to HR professionals in this time? 00:21:31:23 - 00:21:55:22 Lisa Yeah, I like the you you qualified it within this time and what's happening in this market right now. So let's talk about that for a second because this is some crazy time folks. Right. This is it's it's weird. And and there is always a, a shift. The market comes in waves always. And I've been doing this long enough literally decades, to be able to see a lot of those waves. 00:21:56:01 - 00:22:20:08 Lisa And I can honestly say this is a real weird one. And there's a lot of I told you so going on. So, so before we look at this moment’s market, let's look at what's happened the last few years. so in 2020 we had a relatively equal amount, surprisingly, of employment terminations and hiring. And in that very strange year. 00:22:20:08 - 00:22:42:05 Lisa Right. It was there was an initial panic. Oh my gosh. The market has frozen. and especially I talk about of course the, the tech market because that's my space. It's very different when we talk about the services market in 2020 of course. Yeah. But honing in on the tech market, we had a surprising, almost a shocking balance of, of losing employment and gaining employment. 00:22:42:07 - 00:23:03:16 Lisa And then when we came back out of our, our bizarro hidden shells, that was 2020 and started creeping back outdoors in 2021, and people started realizing, okay, the market didn't plummet as badly as we thought. Hiring is still moving. Oh my gosh, my next door neighbor's hiring too. We need to get everyone. And the frenzy began. Oh yeah, and we were all part of the frenzy. 00:23:03:18 - 00:23:28:15 Lisa And those of you out there who have been in the job market for three or fewer years, you've only seen the frenzy and there's some expectation or belief that that is what the market looks like. That was a weird time in throughout 2021. In 2022, I was holding my breath and there were a lot of us holding our breath, knowing this is not going to last and it's going to be very ugly when it doesn't. 00:23:28:17 - 00:23:45:09 Lisa And so the frenzy happened and we were doing this massive sweep of throw money at the problem. Everything anyone wants mental health, mental health. Let's do this. We'll throw more money at it. We're going to pay you too much. We're going to bonus you too much. We're going to hire people who we don't actually have jobs for right now. 00:23:45:13 - 00:24:14:11 Lisa But we think you're really smart, and eventually we're going to have something for you. so we're going to keep you on payroll. This is a great way to ruin a company. Right. and and it was happening. It was everywhere. We all saw it. We all felt it. And and it also gave every employee, out there in this market, this sense of, it's not entitlement, this sense of worth and value that the market that was not real in our market. 00:24:14:15 - 00:24:30:17 Lisa I think every one of you precious people are worth everything you've ever made in the moment you were making it. But the market actually dictates that. And so that brings us to where we are right now. where we are right now is, is the massive correction of that hiring frenzy. Most of us knew it was going to happen. 00:24:30:17 - 00:24:52:05 Lisa If you're watching the news, if you're watching economics, you could have predicted that it was going to happen. and it did. And so we saw 2023 change everything. And and what that did for us right now is force more communication. Right? We had these insane budgets that we were able to spend on our people to attract and retain our people. 00:24:52:10 - 00:25:13:04 Lisa Let's make no bones about it. The companies were not giving those budgets to care for the health of their people, or to provide their people better cars or fancier meals. They were doing it for the health of the company, to get the best people and keep the best people in the time they thought they needed to get in, get and keep the best people. 00:25:13:09 - 00:25:31:03 Lisa That is not where budgets are going anymore. and so we have to understand there are going to be and this is not our last one. This is just a wave. It was a big, ugly one, but it is a wave in the industry and in the economy, where things will shift and that's going to keep happening. 00:25:31:07 - 00:26:02:22 Lisa So to answer your question that you asked me about an hour ago, is, what does that mean now? And how does how does HR kind of respond to the needs of the employees, so to speak? it's through communication. It's through helping people understand that, and that's going to be education as people, like I said, those those folks who have been in the in the work space for a few years or fewer, it's going to help them understand these waves as they move forward in their careers, too, because there's going to be more of them. 00:26:02:22 - 00:26:07:17 Lisa This is how life works very much. You all I know, right? 00:26:07:19 - 00:26:10:00 we're all in it, right? 00:26:10:02 - 00:26:30:16 Shaniqua it it it did like I would say, it does feel really weird. like, different from, you know, the housing crash in 2007, you know, that that was an interesting market. And I actually felt like it only impacted those, like, for me at least, like I was in college and it impacted me, my ability to get grants. 00:26:30:20 - 00:26:34:03 Shaniqua Right. and then those in the financial sector, I think job. 00:26:34:03 - 00:26:55:07 Stephanie I was in financial services at that time, and I remember what I like to describe as the, the conference call that hung the world, where we did a companywide conference call and in one fell swoop, I watched, like, I was in a room with like 60 people, and everybody's heads just went, yeah, like that. It was just such a hard time. 00:26:55:07 - 00:27:01:18 Stephanie I mean, we ended up laying off, I don't know, maybe more than 100 people during that time. It was it was really. 00:27:01:18 - 00:27:18:02 Lisa And the difference in that moment is that as that conversation happens and everyone knew what was happening in the in the economy, and everyone's head was able to sink a little bit and we were able to digest that. What's happened in the last couple of years has been more like this. Like there is where are we going? It's up, it's down. 00:27:18:02 - 00:27:18:23 Lisa It's and that's. 00:27:18:23 - 00:27:19:08 Stephanie Hard. 00:27:19:11 - 00:27:20:13 Lisa To communicate. It's like the. 00:27:20:13 - 00:27:28:17 Shaniqua People I just hire, I'm like, oh, you got to like, that's crazy. Like, how do we not know that we would be laying these people off, you know? So I think it was like one of the. 00:27:28:18 - 00:27:30:22 Lisa Frenzy feeling instead of right. 00:27:31:03 - 00:27:31:22 Shaniqua Like what was going on. 00:27:32:00 - 00:27:46:00 Lisa Right last time we saw it coming and sure enough, it hit and we were able to say, yeah, I saw it come. And this time we we almost didn't. We we blinded ourselves through the enthusiasm and the excitement. what goes up. 00:27:46:02 - 00:27:47:00 Shaniqua It does come down. 00:27:47:00 - 00:27:51:07 Stephanie So let me how do we find balance? Ooh. You know, and so, I mean. 00:27:51:07 - 00:27:54:11 Lisa I want to stay HR we need a whole panel up in here. 00:27:57:06 - 00:28:01:22 Lisa How do we save the world? I was just talking about HR not being your friend. 00:28:02:00 - 00:28:32:01 Stephanie you know, we can't. We each have. We each in our own way, can bring balance into our environments in different ways. And, and as we've just, you know, discussed, HR does have a big impact, you know, regardless of how they're being driven, you know, whether or not they're being driven from, you know, a visionary leadership team that wants HR to be present in that space and setting that vision with, or, you know, they're in a position where maybe they're in a smaller environment, they don't have as much impact. 00:28:32:03 - 00:28:53:06 Stephanie But I believe that we all have the capacity to empower ourselves. And so what do I mean, what what can HR people do to sort of help mitigate some of this? If there's a lot of anxiety out there around HR and it's not, it's it's coming even from within. It's coming from within the house. The call is coming from within. 00:28:53:08 - 00:28:53:17 Stephanie like. 00:28:53:18 - 00:29:01:16 Lisa We said two things there because you said we all have that, that the, the ability to empower ourselves. What's HR doing about it? 00:29:01:18 - 00:29:11:17 Stephanie No, I just not like that. from that perspective of asking, since we're talking about HR, you know, I mean, I'm not I could I could certainly speak well in marketing. 00:29:11:19 - 00:29:23:02 Lisa Though, I think I think that's it. What can HR do? HR can help you empower yourselves. And how can I help the individuals empower themselves and find that place? It's through communication and education. 00:29:23:02 - 00:29:43:17 Stephanie Let me clarify my question. I was asking what HR can do for themselves, like because they're caught in the midst of I mean, like that was a very, you know, aggravated post for a lot of reasons. And it wasn't just the hook there. It brought up a lot of stuff. And, you know, again, a lot of HR people reached out for their own needs. 00:29:43:19 - 00:29:56:03 Stephanie And so I'm just sort of like exploring that idea of like, how can H.R. support themselves, you know, like when you're sitting there saying, we have to lay everybody off and then we lay ourselves off. I mean, that's that's hard. You know, that's really difficult. 00:29:56:03 - 00:30:13:21 Lisa And, yeah, it's hard. Hard. A lot of times HR is responsible for being the messenger. We've talked about that. Yeah. the we're the bad news people. And so, so people, we get the bad news mirror right back at us. Right? Oh, you're the ones telling me this bad things, or you must be the bad people. 00:30:13:23 - 00:30:37:10 Lisa And what we don't do, we, we communicate the message. And what HR often doesn't do is communicate the why behind the message. Here's the what the company told us. We have to share the work with you. Here's the what that's going on in the company. And we're not empowered to share the why. and I think that's critical. 00:30:37:15 - 00:31:06:13 Lisa I think that, that that's an area that HR really can and should be better arming ourselves and challenging our leadership. to do don't go beyond giving me the message I need to share, whether that's we're having a layoff or we're cutting these programs or talk about the why. Why? Because we went after this group of clients and it ended up not a good market for us. 00:31:06:16 - 00:31:10:14 Lisa And so we lost some money there. And here's what we're doing to recover our business. 00:31:10:15 - 00:31:32:23 Shaniqua Oh my gosh Lisa that is so true. Like I, I remember in one of my roles we had, offers getting ready to go out. And, you know, by the time I offer goes out, candidates are aware that they're getting an offer and they want to know why the offer isn't coming out. And I remember I had like 20 candidates at were finalists. 00:31:32:23 - 00:31:38:17 Shaniqua I had to call and tell them that the roles no longer existed. Now, you know, that was. 00:31:38:17 - 00:31:39:08 Lisa Your only message. 00:31:39:08 - 00:31:57:21 Shaniqua In HR. They give you a script and that is what you read. If anyone on the floor hears you read anything, you try to give them anything else, you are in trouble. So I love that you said being like empowering to tell the why and pushing back on leaders. Because people want to know the why, the fundamental why. 00:31:57:21 - 00:32:04:09 Shaniqua And I think when you understand the why, you can at least accept something versus having to create the why in your head. 00:32:04:11 - 00:32:23:03 Stephanie I feel like you're illuminating very clearly to kind of where the crux of the challenge really, truly lies in that sense. And you said something, you know, we only give the bad news. But one of the points I make in my videos, the confusion is, no, that's not true. You hire people, you give the job offer, you give them the job, you give them the paycheck. 00:32:23:05 - 00:32:46:06 Stephanie You become their friend. You become their front. They see you that way because you're the face of the company and you're telling them, you know, this is the organization and we're going to recruit you, and it's going to be. And that's where that and then and then later on when you're rescinding the offer or you're laying them off and that's where I think that that real confusion happens because there's no message in between. 00:32:46:06 - 00:32:46:22 Stephanie You don't get to. 00:32:47:03 - 00:33:01:13 Lisa Your wants to be different, right? I can't tell you how many people I have talked to and interviewed and hung out with in the world of HR, who and I asked this question. I think you and I have all talked about this when I asked the question, why did you get into HR? And they say, because I love people. 00:33:01:13 - 00:33:02:08 Stephanie Every single one. 00:33:02:08 - 00:33:20:05 Lisa And I always say, well, that's a crying shame. Yeah, that's going to be really hard for you because that's like being a vet, because you love animals and you're going to have to cut them open and you're going to have to shove their eyeball back in the socket when they get in my car. And oh my gosh, you're going to have to put them down even, right. 00:33:20:06 - 00:33:46:07 Lisa So you better go into veterinary school because you love science and you love, you know, biology and and there are other components. And you should probably consider HR because you're very organized, because you understand, process because you know how to communicate very well. And then you should also like people because those are the people you're that's why you're developing these processes, these systems, these tools, this communication. 00:33:46:07 - 00:34:10:03 Stephanie So in some sense it feels like HR isn't just confusing for employees. It's actually confusing for HR I agree. Oh yes. I mean if you're going into HR with this ideal and then it gets turned on its head, you know, you're sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place at that point. Because, you see, I mean, I've known so many just really talented, many of my family members are HR specialists. 00:34:10:03 - 00:34:19:19 Stephanie And so, you know, it's like, it's it they do love people. I mean, they do everyone I know an HR really does. And I do think it's a dichotomy they have to struggle with like, yeah. 00:34:19:21 - 00:34:23:11 Lisa And if you think about it like marketing people like people too. 00:34:23:11 - 00:34:24:21 Stephanie And salespeople like. 00:34:24:21 - 00:34:38:08 Lisa Salespeople like people too. And, and, any number of roles I've been asked before, you know, why didn't you go into sales Lisa? You'd be so good at it. And I would say, because I like working harder and making less money, it just felt right to me. 00:34:38:10 - 00:34:40:16 but but it, 00:34:40:17 - 00:35:00:15 Lisa It's. There are also engineers who love people. There are also HR people who really don't like people that much, and they're good at what they do also. so it's that's a lovely person. Personal traits. it is not necessarily a significant job. 00:35:00:16 - 00:35:21:22 Stephanie To the point of the diversity of how much HR does. You don't you could be in a very non people very regulated role, or you could be in a very people facing very. And so and I say that just like marketing, everything's marketing people are creative. And it's like you could be a research analyst right. You know, SEO or not, not all marketing people are just, you know, out there making things pretty. 00:35:21:22 - 00:35:27:03 Stephanie And so it really is those perceptions that we've sort of built up, these stereotypes that we have around these. 00:35:27:03 - 00:35:44:19 Lisa And bust our hearts for the, folks coming into HR with this altruistic idea of, I get to go help people. It's, and I'm going to go build cultures. And I think to myself, well, when companies can afford that, you'll have jobs. but the rest of HR looks like this. 00:35:44:21 - 00:36:00:21 Shaniqua Right. So as far as, like final like takeaways and thoughts, HR Friend or Foe? Like what would you leave, our audience with when they're considering this question. 00:36:00:23 - 00:36:05:10 Lisa yeah. 00:36:05:12 - 00:36:36:22 Lisa I think most HR, teams have a goal of creating an environment that supports employees and allows them to be seen as the friend. We also have to give the grace to those HR departments that they are employers of an organization, and all of the employers within an organization are responsible for the function and the productivity of the organization. 00:36:37:00 - 00:37:02:03 Lisa It is it's a career. It's a it's a piece of a business, just like any other role in the business is a piece of the business. we are also very hopeful that we can provide a positive piece of our business, just like every other role wants to provide a positive piece of their business. so we're just like you, is is part of it? 00:37:02:04 - 00:37:15:06 Lisa yeah, I think that would be my messaging. My message to HR, would be a little bit different. my message to HR is, is give yourself that grace. and. 00:37:15:08 - 00:37:15:18 Stephanie I agree 00:37:15:20 - 00:37:39:11 Lisa Focus not only on the programs that we can or can't build, but also on how we talk about them. the communication again, going back to that, why I think, more people and there's plenty of data to support this. This isn't me just, opinioning here. more people will stay at a company that is transparent and struggling and will stay at a company that is successful and quiet. 00:37:39:11 - 00:38:03:05 Stephanie And I feel like that last message that you just gave, that's not actually for HR, that's leaders. That's for you. You need to be listening and talking to your HR people and allowing them more latitude because, if, if HR is let's I don't like to say that HR is responsible for developing the culture at all, but they are in some way responsible for sort of like curating or nurturing it. 00:38:03:05 - 00:38:19:06 Stephanie Yeah, and nurturing it and cultivating it in that way. And you need some latitude to, to be honest with the people that you're working with. If you're in that position, there's just no way that you can be truly successful with those types of reigns. I think. I think it's really a challenge. So very and. 00:38:19:06 - 00:38:31:21 Lisa You're right, the messaging is all for leaders. You're exactly right. that this is about leadership and it is about, how you run the company, how you run the company is is dictates how people feel about your HR team. 00:38:31:23 - 00:38:32:15 Stephanie Yeah. 00:38:32:17 - 00:38:41:15 Shaniqua Thank you so much, Lisa. If someone if our audience out there wants to learn more about HR or where they where can they find you? 00:38:41:16 - 00:38:54:20 Lisa Well, I run LMNHR. I'm a, fractional HR leader and consultant and have a team that we can, provide some of those services and most importantly, that guidance and those answers. 00:38:54:22 - 00:38:56:08 Shaniqua where can I find you? And you can. 00:38:56:08 - 00:39:01:11 Lisa Find me on LinkedIn, of course. And you can also find me at Lisa at LMNHR.com. 00:39:01:13 - 00:39:12:09 Shaniqua Awesome. Thank you so much Lisa. And HR is a business function. Everyone. It's definitely everything. 00:39:12:11 - 00:39:38:08 Stephanie And the HR is a business function. And you know in business I think that we all have to take the perspective that we're all there serving our needs. And the more that we can come together and everybody can lead from wherever they're at in an organization. Right. And it's just really about coming together and supporting each other and recognizing that we have a common purpose, even if we don't all know what it is. 00:39:38:08 - 00:39:41:07 Stephanie Sometimes we do have a common purpose for where we're at. 00:39:41:08 - 00:40:06:03 Shaniqua So I do have one more thing to say. We can spice that last thing. So if you are, please get to know your HR, team members, your recruiters, and everyone else within the organization to build that relationship. Cross-functionally. so I'm pretty sure HR, you know, myself, like, I would love to hear like positive things that are going on in the organization versus the worst thing. 00:40:06:06 - 00:40:26:12 Shaniqua Not that we're not there to help you with that, but we would like to hear the good stuff too. And then secondly, if you are struggling and you don't feel that, you can connect with anyone in HR, there is the EEOC that you can engage with and they are legally your friend, I guess. But that's through your advocate. 00:40:26:12 - 00:40:27:10 Stephanie They been. 00:40:27:12 - 00:40:31:21 Shaniqua Advocates. So, please do that. 00:40:31:23 - 00:40:41:12 Stephanie And on that note, I think thank you for a great show, ladies. This was fantastic. Thank you. Thank you everybody. Oh thank you and share. Follow us. 00:40:41:12 - 00:40:44:03 Shaniqua Love us. Oh love I spy I think you got. 00:40:44:03 - 00:40:54:13 Shaniqua Thanks for listening to our show. Show us your support by following us on your favorite podcast platform Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:40:54:15 - 00:41:06:22 Stephanie You can also find us on Castos at From Illumination To Innovation dot castos dot com. If you love our show, share it with your friends and coworkers too. Let's all work together to help businesses 00:41:06:22 - 00:41:12:06 S&S Vibrate Higher!