Uncovering Individual Shadows: How Personal Traits Impact Business Performance

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:04:23 00:00:04:23 - 00:00:36:00 Shaniqua Welcome back to another episode of From Illumination To Innovation. I'm your host, Shaniqua Brown, the founder and president of Elevated TA, the premier government hiring partner. Today, we're kicking off a very special series of episodes centered around something that all of us experience but rarely address in the workplace. This month, we're diving deep into the concept of brand shadows. 00:00:36:05 - 00:01:10:14 Shaniqua And what better way than by sitting down with FITI Vodcast’s own co-host Stephanie Crain Brand. Shadows. Stephanie has recently published her book Brand Shadow Understanding and Overcoming Corporate Toxicity, where she unpacks how unconscious behaviors in toxic corporate environments create these shadows. Today, we'll be flipping through the script and I'll interview Stephanie, giving us a unique opportunity to hear her insights. 00:01:10:15 - 00:01:44:05 Shaniqua So, Stephanie, let's shed some light on these shadows and explore how they show up in our personal lives and in business. Congratulations, Stephanie, on the release of your book, Brand Shadow. In your book, you mentioned how corporate trauma can affect individuals in ways that might not even we might not even recognize. Could you briefly share what inspired you to explore the concept of shadows and how it became the foundation of your book? 00:01:44:07 - 00:02:10:10 Stephanie Thank you so much. So, you know, for me, I learned about the concept of shadows. I know it's a it's kind of a buzzword right now, first of all. So I'll just acknowledge that I know under the shadow work and that ideas out there are a lot. And I first learned about the concept of shadows through my coaching program and it was through Creative Mind University, and they focus on Jungian theory. 00:02:10:12 - 00:02:43:17 Stephanie Jungian theory is related to Carl Jung. He was a I believe a Swiss psychologist, in the 30s, 40s a while back. You know, I mean, you know, me and my data fact checking. Okay. And like. And so Carl Jung, he studied under Freud. But eventually broke off from Freud with his work and developing the psyche and really looking at persona archetypes, how the ego shows up, and then specifically our shadows and the concept as it relates to individuals. 00:02:43:17 - 00:03:12:03 Stephanie The shadow just simply means unseen. It's not good or bad, but typically the these sort of aspects of ourselves that we place in the shadow are things, we have been conditioned to hide. Or maybe we've been taught to judge these things as bad. I often like to say, you know, we sometimes place really powerful, important things in the shadow, like our voice and our ability to speak up and set boundaries. 00:03:12:03 - 00:03:22:01 Stephanie So, you know, the shadow really holds a lot of energy. So, yeah, that was that was really kind of the impetus for exploring it through organizations. 00:03:22:03 - 00:03:28:11 Shaniqua And if I'm not mistaken, you have like, a certification in the Jungian concepts, right? 00:03:28:12 - 00:03:52:06 Stephanie That's correct. I'm a master. I'm certified as a Master Jungian Coach. And, and I do professional coaching. I work with leaders and I work with individuals as well, who are really working to expand their emotional intelligence to confront, so to speak, to confront the shadows, but more importantly, to embrace and integrate that energy, to understand how it's impacting them. 00:03:52:08 - 00:04:05:13 Shaniqua Well, on that, like the same vein, they're like, could you explain what the corporate like shadow is and how unconscious behaviors rooted in trauma manifest in the workplace? 00:04:05:15 - 00:04:34:13 Stephanie So it's interesting is to to understand how I align the corporate shadow, really to go back to the individual shadow. Right. We all have these unconscious behaviors, these unconscious things that we've repressed. And it brings, reactive or sometimes what's noted as trigger, you know, responses, so to speak, trigger reactivity and when I take that concept so with the, with the individual, often these behaviors are very deeply embedded. 00:04:34:13 - 00:04:59:17 Stephanie They're very unconscious. And and it might even be you have some awareness but you're like why do I keep doing this? I keep trying all these things. But I can't stop this pattern of behavior. And oftentimes that's rooted in that early stage conditioning where you're just not even aware of why that patterns start to begin with. So if we take that concept and we elevate that to an organization, right. 00:04:59:17 - 00:05:28:10 Stephanie Or an organization is just a collectively a large group of people. And historically organizations have really focused on what, you know, we talk about I talk about logos and pathos and ethos, right. And so our logos is sort of our logic minded self, our ability to, you know, be very organized, very logical in our thinking, very process driven, and the way that we make decisions. 00:05:28:10 - 00:05:50:23 Stephanie And we have been highly conditioned in our corporate spaces around the concept of logos, so much so that our entire brand systems are built around this simple, you know, that we call logos and that's, you know, sort of the extension of what that comes from, because the logos, that aspect of your identity and the pathos side of the identity, right, is really the emotional aspect of your identity. 00:05:51:01 - 00:06:19:17 Stephanie And, you know, if we think about how, you know, the root of pathos and we see words like pathologic, you know, pathology and pathological and things like that, we, you know, pathos, we associate with emotions, which we also associate with chaos, not order. And in corporate spaces, we have really kind of conditioned our corporate structure to function heavily around the logos, the logic and the order which is great. 00:06:19:19 - 00:06:30:22 Stephanie You know, it makes sense. We need that structure. But we're also sort of like as individuals, right? Like just leave that pathos side of yourself at home. Like, we don't need. 00:06:31:00 - 00:06:33:13 Shaniqua Whatever's bothering you, just like, leave that. 00:06:33:13 - 00:06:58:20 Stephanie Yeah. We don't need all that extra chaos. Right? And of course, you know, again, when we're talking about emotional triggers, these are not conscious behaviors. And so us as individuals, right? When we when we talk about organizational shadows, I think it's important first to look at the fact that organizations are asking us to sort of divide ourselves as individuals. 00:06:58:22 - 00:07:26:08 Stephanie And we have to acknowledge the fact that, like all people are bringing their own emotional triggers, their own unconscious conditioning into the workspace. And so when I work with people who are like, you know, I hate my boss, or this one coworker is constantly this, or how do I make this person be that, you know, I always take it back to, well, let's talk about what energy are you bringing to the situation? 00:07:26:10 - 00:07:57:21 Stephanie How are you reacting? So that's where I start when I am looking again at the organizational structure. When we talk about organizational shadows, it's not always quite So unconscious, sometimes it is. Sometimes these shadows get developed very unintentionally where we don't have strong leadership that's really trained to make that transition from, say, building and a business as an entrepreneur to leading an organization as a leader. 00:07:57:21 - 00:08:28:00 Stephanie Right? There's a there's a transition there. So sometimes shadows get developed unintentionally based on sort of like leadership not being prepared, you know, not being able to kind of step into that role. But sometimes shadows and businesses, you know, kind of on purpose and hidden, and so when I talk about organizational shadows, it's a little bit of looking at both sides, like what can be done in organizations to avoid those unintentional shadows. 00:08:28:02 - 00:08:43:08 Stephanie And how do we hold organizations accountable for their hidden shadows that they are somewhat intentionally, you know, hiding from us, presenting maybe one value system, but acting on another. 00:08:43:10 - 00:09:17:05 Shaniqua What you said, Stephanie, actually is what I enjoyed most about reading your book, where I feel like you highlight the shadows of organizations, but you do it in a way that is fair and just where you also call the attention to the individual, where it's you. Help us essentially, as you navigate the book by sharing your own journey, you force the reader to reckon with themselves and ask themselves like, am I trigger? 00:09:17:05 - 00:09:39:23 Shaniqua Is it actually toxic? Or is this a “Me” thing? You know, did the company tell me who they were? And I didn't listen? Now I'm in this situation and I feel like there's not a lot of individual accountability where we are wanting to hold the entity accountable versus looking in the mirror ourselves. 00:09:40:01 - 00:10:09:12 Stephanie It's thank you for bringing that up. And it's really so, you know, I talk about the ego in the book, right? Our egos, how they serve a really powerful function for our psyche. And they're there to protect us and help us survive. But I assure you, whether your ego is overactive or underactive, you are in survival mode. The ideal is for the ego to be safe. 00:10:09:14 - 00:10:32:00 Stephanie We want our ego to be psychologically safe. We want to be in a place of trust and strength, and we want to be responsive, not reactive. And when our ego is in that space of safety, then we're kind of working from our higher self and we're really showing up strong as individuals. It's really challenging to have that self-awareness and look inward. 00:10:32:02 - 00:10:54:17 Stephanie You brought up, you know, like this person is toxic, right? I hear this a lot. Somebody will say like, you know, my boss is so toxic and. Oh, okay, well, what does that mean to you? What is toxic mean to you? And they'll start describing behaviors that are really, to me, more misalignments. It's it's maybe they're not communicating. 00:10:54:17 - 00:11:18:01 Stephanie They don't communicate the same way. You know, maybe it's it's not an issue of toxicity like toxicity. Is this person disrespecting you? Is this person abusing you? Is this person lying to you? Is this like there are certain toxic traits that we can, you know, very clearly identify as true toxicity, but really, we're all showing up as humans at work. 00:11:18:03 - 00:11:50:16 Stephanie You know, and, and so to just immediately identify and label somebody as toxic, it's a psychological defense mechanism. And it's really before I do that for myself, even, you know, I'm always checking in with sort of like, again, how am I showing up? Where am I being triggered? And one of the keys to and why I encourage, you know, empowerment for the individual in the workplace because I don't believe toxic culture is going to change just by us going like leaders. 00:11:50:16 - 00:11:52:18 Stephanie You all suck. Be better. Okay? 00:11:52:18 - 00:11:54:19 Shaniqua Like that's that's not going to work. 00:11:55:00 - 00:11:58:10 Stephanie Okay. And the fact is, is not all leaders suck. 00:11:58:11 - 00:11:58:21 Shaniqua Right. 00:11:59:00 - 00:12:21:10 Stephanie At all. You know, there are actually really good leaders out there, but there are lots of gaps. And I think leadership evolution, and I think we're going through a massive shift and the way corporate business functions and, you know, we see kind of the extremes of leadership happening. And then there's a whole bunch of people in between that sort of don't know which direction to go. 00:12:21:12 - 00:12:44:15 Stephanie So I think it makes it very confusing. And I believe the only way businesses are going to truly evolve is it's got to be organic, it's got to be holistic. It has to come from the ground up and the top down, and there has to be a holistic meeting in the middle. And that happens by individuals looking inward before they start projecting outward. 00:12:44:17 - 00:13:03:13 Shaniqua That's fair. And speaking on let's I'm curious if we can elaborate more on these emotional triggers, like how do these emotional triggers, like unconscious biases, race, gender or class play into the creation and perpetuation of these shadows in corporate environments? 00:13:03:15 - 00:13:31:07 Stephanie Yeah, I honestly, unconscious bias I think is something that everybody struggles with, right? We all bring that on our own, whether we know it or not. Even if we work really hard to be super good people and at a conscious level are making really intentional, conscious choices, we have to recognize that there's conditioning that we bring to the table and part of that is like our natural survival instincts. 00:13:31:07 - 00:13:53:08 Stephanie Part of that is, you know, the conditioning of society, media, the things around us. But I think that unconscious bias as a whole in general creates many, many challenges. And then the problem is when you call it unconscious bias. So somebody will come to me and say, you know, I'm receiving somebody, you know, treating me poorly for whatever reason. 00:13:53:08 - 00:14:12:18 Stephanie Maybe they think it's race, maybe they think it's culture, maybe it's and and that may be true. I'm not challenging that that experience is happening. But if I question that individual again on, you know, okay, well what are you bringing to this. How are you responding to this. You know, are you being reactive? Are you feeding the energy or are you neutralizing it? 00:14:12:18 - 00:14:45:01 Stephanie Are you protecting yourself, setting boundary, whatever it is, that awareness of self is always a bigger struggle. It's always easier to focus on what's being done to them. Then sort of how can I empower myself to because the unconscious bias isn't going to disappear. Okay. You're going to run into it in other places. And if you're constantly in a situation of defense mode, then you're really giving that power to the individual who's carrying the bias and projecting it. 00:14:45:03 - 00:15:08:04 Shaniqua Right. So it's kind of like we're in a dance, like unconscious bias. If I can see that. Okay, suddenly I feel like you're in an unconscious bias with me, right? Or I feel like you're doing something to me. Yeah. And if I am not aware of myself, how I'm showing up, reacting, then we're just going to continue to do this tango back and forth, back and forth where you may not know what you're doing, but I can see what you're doing. 00:15:08:04 - 00:15:16:01 Shaniqua I'm not changing how I'm reacting to it. So therefore it happens again and again versus empowering myself to make a change. Is that like what you. 00:15:16:01 - 00:15:39:03 Stephanie Absolutely, absolutely. Because I talk to people a lot about like there's a lot of different ways to respond, right? So you can be confrontational and be that way intentionally and set a boundary and be like, that's not acceptable. You can be non-confrontational and be like, you're not worth my time and energy. I'm going to turn around and walk away. 00:15:39:09 - 00:16:05:05 Stephanie I'm not even going to respond to this, but there's also this one aspect that I think a lot of people overlook entirely, which is how do you neutralize that individual? How do you just simply take their power away? And just claim your own power in that space? And a lot of times we I like to use of fear, neutralize, disarm, you know, like it's I deeply believe in dealing with conflict. 00:16:05:05 - 00:16:30:01 Stephanie I deeply believe in healthy confrontation. I think those things are necessary and required. Yeah. I deeply believe in setting boundaries to protect yourself. But I also think that when you have a strong sense of your own emotional self-awareness, you understand your value systems. And and this is the key. You can look at the person in front of you with an ounce of empathy. 00:16:30:03 - 00:16:47:18 Stephanie You have an opportunity to some to disarm that individual and teach some maybe something about without like we're not talking about like oh you know it's not my place to educate the world. That's not what I mean. This is through your behavior and how you're presenting and projecting your own energy. 00:16:47:20 - 00:17:14:00 Shaniqua That is profound, Stephanie. And very empowering to the individual. And I love that you said neutralize. Disarm, because I feel like oftentimes we're caught in this war. I grew up in a Christian household, and there's a war, you know, against heaven and hell, and there's a war against, you know, currently right now in politics, there's there's always this war. 00:17:14:00 - 00:17:41:10 Shaniqua We're going to beat the competition in a corporate environment. So I feel like we're constantly at war, whether it's something that we're, you know, like spiritual beliefs, like, competitive, like in, in, like business or within ourselves, in other people. So I love your perspective of of just how can we like, embraces conflict without going to war with the at the person like seeing this person as a human? 00:17:41:12 - 00:17:43:04 Shaniqua I love that, Stephanie. Thank you very. 00:17:43:04 - 00:18:07:05 Stephanie Much. It's that language that we use that you brought up so many great examples of. It's it's tired language. It's exhausting. It really it keeps us in survival mode, you know, what am I like? You know, I come from marketing, as I have mentioned several times on the show, one of my least favorite words ever. Deadline. 00:18:07:07 - 00:18:13:12 Stephanie Nobody's dying. Okay. I love you know what my favorite word is? Lifeline. When is this coming to life? 00:18:13:14 - 00:18:14:03 Shaniqua Life? 00:18:14:03 - 00:18:17:02 Stephanie Why are we bringing this to life? 00:18:17:04 - 00:18:18:10 Shaniqua I'm dying. 00:18:18:12 - 00:18:44:17 Stephanie Why do we have deadlines? Yeah. Why are we? We're not dying when the brochure doesn't go out. I'm sorry. Like it? We have so many ways to communicate these days. So many ways. Is, is is, you know, maybe there was, you know, a time when. And don't get me wrong, I deeply believe in setting meeting goals. You know, I deeply believe and and discipline and, you know, really moving toward, you know, planning. 00:18:44:19 - 00:19:08:09 Stephanie I always say like you can always change a plan. Right. But chaos just stays chaos. But that language matters. And again, it's it goes into the psyche of are we psychologically safe in our corporate environments. And for the most part, the answer is a flat no, we're not. We don't feel psychologically safe. And that's not just employees. Leaders actually don't really feel that good about their environments either. 00:19:08:11 - 00:19:34:17 Shaniqua I mean, I couldn't imagine being a CEO. There's only one CEO role, right? And there's only so many companies in the US. And like, being a CEO must feel lonely, you know, for, like, an enterprise, like fortune 100 company. I must feel really lonely, and stressful. And maybe it's. If it's. We use a term deadline in our world. 00:19:34:17 - 00:19:48:06 Shaniqua I can't imagine the language that they use there. And then you also have to deal with the stakeholders in the shareholders. And you know, I think looking at them with the ounce of empathy would help the discussion from top down, bottom up some. 00:19:48:07 - 00:20:14:04 Stephanie I had a conversation really recently about bullying in the workplace. Right. And the current I shared similar I, you know, about disarming and things like that, you know, and and I asked, you know, from the perspective of like when I see a bully and again, this is, you know, I've been in bullying situations, I've been bullied in my life, you know, and, and and I've usually, usually I respond to bullies pretty directly. 00:20:14:06 - 00:21:05:23 Stephanie Like, that's just me, you know, but as I've, you know, grown, educated, just learned more, had more experience when I see a bully now, it's like you're telling me everything you're afraid of. You're telling me all of your weaknesses. Like it's just on display. And, you know, if you can understand that right out of it. And the thing is, is they're feeding they the bullies are often fairly intuitive about other people, you know, and they are looking, your triggers and they're, they're feeding off that trigger, you know, and so it's just a matter of like, again, really, the bully doesn't have the right to function and project their pain onto other people. 00:21:06:01 - 00:21:40:05 Stephanie But if you're strong enough in that space and not everybody is, and I don't expect that they should be, but if you are in that capacity to do that, it's like, I believe that the more we can unify in corporate spaces and support each other, the more that we can form healthy alliances, not silos, but healthy alliances where, for example, if we have an environment that says we don't tolerate bullying, how do we activate that and promote that in a way that other team members can support other team members, and somebody doesn't get isolated into that bullying space? 00:21:40:07 - 00:21:54:15 Stephanie You know, it's just looking at these situations. Again, individual situations are happening, but they affect that organizational culture. And if they're not addressed, they do create these brand shadows that we talk about. 00:21:54:17 - 00:22:00:04 Shaniqua That is definitely some food for thought. Stephanie, I have one more question before we take our break. 00:22:00:06 - 00:22:01:01 Stephanie Yeah. 00:22:01:03 - 00:22:24:02 Shaniqua So you share several powerful personal stories throughout. Your book about witnessing corporate trauma firsthand. Could you speak to a specific instance where you noticed destruction of corporate trauma, and how that experience influenced your approach to healing corporate spaces? 00:22:24:04 - 00:22:55:00 Stephanie Specific instance. I don't think I wrote about this one in my book. I think this is. I might have, though I might have wrote about this. You know, when I was fairly young in my career and I was actually it was one of my early inside sales jobs working, working in technology. And I remember it was it was like a great job. 00:22:55:02 - 00:23:15:12 Stephanie I think I loved it. I, I made some lifelong friends there, you know, I've known them now for like 30 years. You know, I've, I learned so much and at that job and in that role and the culture was like, it was awesome. Like we you know, there was like maybe 30 of us in the office. We had great office space, beautiful views, great location. 00:23:15:12 - 00:23:43:17 Stephanie Everything about it was just like, great. And then one day, you know, I'd worked there for about a year. And one day we find out that the company is being investigated, because an employee is being suspected of stealing from the company. Oh, wow. And it's really, really upsetting because we're all very close. We're all like, you know, we all know each other very well. 00:23:43:17 - 00:24:02:22 Stephanie And you know, our boss, you know, we great, really dynamic. You know, very engaged kind of salon. You know and you know, rallied us all together around this thing. Like we've all got to be cooperative. We've all got it. And so this is the only time in my life I know a lot of people won't believe this is the only time of my life. 00:24:02:22 - 00:24:30:06 Stephanie I was interviewed by the police. But this is. You know, they did. They did this, like, really serious investigation. And it turned out that they were actually investigating, a good friend of mine, somebody who had actually been instrumental in helping me get the job, and it was incredibly upsetting one, because I deeply, deeply believed that my friend was innocent, that my friend didn't have anything to do with this. 00:24:30:08 - 00:24:46:13 Stephanie And I, you know, I was young, I mean, and I mean that I was like, you know, 20s by late in mid, mid to late 20s, you know, and had just not simply had this kind of experience before. And so when I went in, my husband took me to the office, to the police station, and we had to go. 00:24:46:14 - 00:25:03:12 Stephanie We literally all had to go down there and be like interviewed, like in a inner investigation room with like Police Officer two. And they were it was really scary. They were so intimidating. And, you know, they knew that I was friends with this person and this whole thing happens. I remember running out and crying like in my car. 00:25:03:12 - 00:25:51:04 Stephanie My husband waited for me. I was in there for like an hour. No lawyer, just I was just naive. So we fast forward. The thieves were the, the head, the owner and her husband, and they pinned it on my friend. And they put us through this psychological trauma. And it really was psychological trauma. And, you know, it was an experience for me that, again, all of these experiences, I, I really do not just internalize that, but I'm just so deeply reflective on the energetic, like what this does to people like long term, like the impact that it had on trust, the impact that it had on, you know, how we thought about leadership in 00:25:51:04 - 00:26:22:21 Stephanie general, like a lot of us move forward into similar companies and things like that. But, you know, it was a very just very toxic, traumatic and sort of like, I'd say random, but I don't know. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I've, I've actually, you know, heard very many people share similar, especially when you know, again, different organizations tend to create their own different types of toxicities and things like that. 00:26:22:21 - 00:26:44:16 Stephanie But but yeah, that that was a real experience in my life. And it definitely, you know, it happened when I was young enough to just continue to kind of collect these experiences from an observational perspective. And just like why this was such a great company to work for. And, and this was a satellite organization in a bigger company. 00:26:44:16 - 00:26:57:15 Stephanie So as a national company, this was just one, you know, part and that, you know, the whole office got shut down like it went away. And we all lost our jobs. We all loved what we did, you know. But that was the impact of that situation for us. 00:26:57:16 - 00:27:04:05 Shaniqua How incredibly disappointing that must have been to discover that it was the owners and not. 00:27:04:05 - 00:27:33:04 Stephanie Was because we had so much respect. Yeah. You know, and we were fooled and, you know, that they positioned us like, you know, they put us at risk, you know, in those ways. And so I, there were so many aspects of it. Again, it's, you know, their integrity. Right. But it affected 30 people and their families, you know, to whatever degree that meant 30 people in their lives, 30 people. 00:27:33:06 - 00:28:02:19 Stephanie And yeah, okay, so it's just 30 people. But you know what? There's so much we have gotten into such a cycle of corporate toxicity. And it's like a dysfunctional family cycle. Right. And so we need people who are capable of just like in a dysfunctional family. Let's not pass this on to future generations. And we can on a after a break we can touch on how future generations are going to affect that as well. 00:28:02:21 - 00:28:04:17 Stephanie Goody. 00:28:04:19 - 00:28:29:20 Shaniqua Well, we've just scratched the surface on concepts of corporate shadows and how they shape our work environments. But don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with the FITI's very own co-host, Stephanie Crain, and we'll drive actually dive deeper into corporate archetypes and how they impact you at work right after this quick break. 00:28:29:20 - 00:28:34:01 Stephanie Shaniqua. Why don't we illuminate 00:28:34:03 - 00:28:37:01 Shaniqua Stephanie so we can innovate? 00:28:37:03 - 00:28:40:10 Stephanie But what are we illuminating? 00:28:40:12 - 00:28:40:20 Stephanie Brand shadows. 00:28:41:22 - 00:28:43:19 Shaniqua Provocative perspectives. 00:28:44:00 - 00:28:45:13 Stephanie Innovative ideas. 00:28:45:13 - 00:28:47:13 Shaniqua Courageous storytelling. 00:28:47:15 - 00:28:51:23 Stephanie We are illuminating the way we think about business 00:28:52:00 - 00:29:00:09 Shaniqua And in the process, innovating how we do business. Find us on YouTube and subscribe today. 00:29:00:09 - 00:29:09:17 Shaniqua And we're back with Stephanie Crain, and we're discussing her book, Brand Shadows Understanding and Overcoming Corporate Toxicity. 00:29:09:19 - 00:29:11:04 Stephanie Yeah. 00:29:11:06 - 00:29:27:02 Shaniqua So, Stephanie, in Brand Shadow, you discuss corporate persona archetypes. There's quite a few. Notably, there's the big boss, the office parent, and the creative and more. Could you walk us through these archetypes? 00:29:27:04 - 00:29:56:08 Stephanie Yes. So first I'm going to say the the persona archetypes that I have. It's I have a Corporate Persona Archetype Quiz that you can go in and take that test, and it helps sort of outline the energy you feel the most comfortable projecting into workplace environments. And to develop this quiz, I actually created over 30 archetypes. And they're they're fully formed kind of persona types. 00:29:56:10 - 00:30:21:22 Stephanie I selected six specific ones for the quiz itself. And that is the big boss, the office parent, and the creative, as you mentioned. And then also the analyzer, the networker. And I chose the entrepreneur. And I did that kind of on purpose for a reason. Realistically, we have a lot of would be entrepreneurs that kind of work their way into the corporate world. 00:30:22:00 - 00:30:33:06 Stephanie And then if they end up staying there, they sort of become like the corporate innovator or the intrepreneur. They kind of shift into that interspace. But I use that because the energy is kind of very specific. 00:30:33:07 - 00:30:57:12 Shaniqua Interesting. So you shared your archetype with me. You're the you actually do it in a way that it's, one slash the other. And yours is Creative Analyzer. So could you tell us more about how you like your archetype and then, like, what's the difference between the creative analyzer, the the slash. 00:30:57:12 - 00:31:20:05 Stephanie Yeah, sure. So the slash is really basically what you score the highest on and what you score the lowest on in the test. And what that's attempting to identify is, again, what you score the highest is sort of the energy you're the most comfortable projecting. It's the persona that you can you show up with naturally. You probably don't even have to think about that energy. 00:31:20:07 - 00:31:43:06 Stephanie And the lowest score is often the shadow aspect of your persona, and it's what you try to repress. You know, maybe, for example, if the analyzer is low, you might be like me where I'm like, hey, look, I'm not good with data, so fact check me with everything, right? Like, and so it's like maybe where your triggers might show up more frequently. 00:31:43:06 - 00:32:07:13 Stephanie It might be energy that you're just simply not accessing. And for me, you know, a lot of personality test what they're intended to do. I think I've taken about a thousand of them. Enfj. When I'm at work, ENFP when I'm at home. That's always true. Many times. But, you know, they to me, they feel like they're really trying to label you. 00:32:07:13 - 00:32:32:13 Stephanie They're trying to define you in a very specific way. My test is not doing that. My test says these persona types are human energy, human conditions that we can all access. Anybody can show up as a big boss. Anybody can be creative, right? Anybody can be nurturing and parental, you know, like these. And even I can be analytical, right. 00:32:32:13 - 00:32:49:02 Stephanie Like we all have access to this energy. But what we've been taught to repress is sort of what we push away. And my goal for the test isn't to say like, oh, you're this like, I'm the creative and one that makes me like, so creative and like, it's like. 00:32:49:05 - 00:32:50:07 Shaniqua Excuse me, I'm the creative. 00:32:50:09 - 00:33:12:13 Stephanie It's eight. Maybe I show up actually very strong. It's the creative. And that's pretty unusual in the corporate world, which honestly explains my entire life in the corporate world on my test the two strongest archetypes of the big boss and the office parent, I tend to call them, you know, Big Daddy, Big Mama like divine masculine energy, divine feminine energy. 00:33:12:15 - 00:33:22:23 Stephanie Now, a lot of you might be surprised to know that I have typically more women showing up as the big boss these days, and more men showing up as the office parent, which really often. 00:33:22:23 - 00:33:23:09 Shaniqua Takes. 00:33:23:14 - 00:33:45:23 Stephanie Off. Yeah, it really does. And, and and those are, you know, so these persona types again, it's the energy that we feel comfortable projecting. So I don't mind showing up in the corporate world with purple hair and being Uber creative and giving, you know, creative responses and dealing with chaos. I don't mind ambiguity. You know, confrontation doesn't bother me. 00:33:45:23 - 00:34:02:17 Stephanie I am a total freak in the corporate world. Okay. So it's like all the things I mean. And on my test that proves out because of the now over 3000 people who have taken it, only 3.6% of the respondents show up as the creative. 00:34:02:19 - 00:34:16:11 Shaniqua That is fascinating, especially in our corporate environments that highlight that we value creativity, innovation and only 3%. Yeah. 00:34:16:13 - 00:34:43:03 Stephanie We wonder why we don't have more innovation. And because we do not nurture creativity and what's more important, it's not just this is also important. I talk about the test isn't so much like how you're defined, but it's how you're defining yourself. So, for example, I've had people who make their living as a creative, you know, literally like jewelers or sculptors or authors or whatever. 00:34:43:05 - 00:35:18:04 Stephanie And they scored the lowest on the creative and and they'll erupt. Don't be like, what? You know, I am totally free. That's my whole life is creativity. And I'll be like, really? Do you show up that way, like in a business meeting? And immediately they'll be like, no, not at all. And I'm like, okay, well, what would happen if you brought a little of that energy forward if your whole life is creativity, if that's like so much of who you are, that it made you angry to see the result. 00:35:19:05 - 00:35:19:18 Shaniqua Right. 00:35:19:18 - 00:35:38:03 Stephanie Maybe, maybe you're repressing that energy in places that you don't think it's going to bring you value. But in my experience, the creatives truly are the unicorns of the corporate world. They're just not that many people that are willing to express that way. 00:35:38:05 - 00:35:59:08 Shaniqua I, when you shared your results with me, I feel like I knew that, the the creative. Like, when I first met you, you were just a ball of fire and, not afraid to be yourself like you stood out in the, the networking group that we were a part of so I could see the creative. 00:35:59:10 - 00:36:03:17 Shaniqua How would you, like, work through the analytical piece or analytical shadow of that look like? 00:36:03:17 - 00:36:29:20 Stephanie Yeah, I embrace it. One, I'm actually pretty. So I my I call my part my my personal hypocrisy is, I am incredibly detail oriented and I don't give a shit about details. Okay. That's. This is like. So I'm a graphic designer, right? I'm a trained graphic designer. I can look at something, and if it's like a single pixel off, I'll say, right. 00:36:29:20 - 00:36:50:22 Stephanie Like, I have a real keen eye for detail, but when I'm telling a story, right, typically I'm really driven by the emotional aspect of the story, by the resonance of like, how did this leave me feeling? Or what am I trying? How do I want my audience to feel when they hear this? And the facts and data are important? 00:36:51:01 - 00:37:14:09 Stephanie I actually value facts and data a lot. There's a lot of them in my book. I did a lot of research and, you know, really pulled a lot of data into back up this actual emotional message that I'm trying to convey. And so a lot of times, especially if you watch a show or if you talk to me as a human at all, anywhere in life, you will hear me say things like, yeah, please fact check me or here, make up a big number. 00:37:14:09 - 00:37:35:11 Stephanie It was big, okay, whatever. You know, because for me, I can get really caught up in the fact, my neurospicy brain just doesn't want to latch on to that information and hold on to it. Or I can just embrace it and be like, hey, I know how to get the data that I need. I'm happy to provide all the resources, you know, like after the show or, or whatever. 00:37:35:11 - 00:37:46:14 Stephanie But right now, for me, this is the point I'm trying to get across, when I need to know my data and be on point, I have it, 90% of the time. 00:37:46:18 - 00:37:49:03 Shaniqua Yeah, it'll be there. It sounds like it's, you know. 00:37:49:05 - 00:38:24:04 Stephanie It's accessible. You know, it's it's more like does not being analytical or just just repressing that energy or feeling like, for whatever reason, I'm not able to access that energy as freely to prevent me from doing the things that I really want to do in my life. Does it just hold me back? Because if it's doing that, like if it won't let me do a podcast because I can't remember, you know, a really important person's name that I know I need to be remembering, but my brain just doesn't function that way as much as I want it to. 00:38:24:06 - 00:38:44:03 Stephanie Trust me, it's not an age thing. It's a lifelong brain thing. And, you know, I just have to, like, embrace those aspects of who I am. Love that part of myself, you know, find the joy and, and nurture the aspects of it that I can just, like, be the best me I can be, you know? And I am analytical. 00:38:44:05 - 00:38:46:16 Stephanie Yeah. Super. I you know, I love spreadsheets. 00:38:46:21 - 00:39:06:16 Shaniqua Oh, yeah. We I think we share that. I love that was our I love perspective. Well, Stephanie, how can understanding these archetypes help us identify emotional triggers in ourselves and others? And how can this awareness help us navigate or even heal corporate toxicity? 00:39:06:17 - 00:39:17:06 Stephanie I'm going to answer your question with a question. So I noticed you took my test. I did, and I'm curious what you thought about your own results. 00:39:17:08 - 00:39:40:20 Shaniqua I felt that my results were pretty spot. And so I took Stephanie's corporate persona test. It was, I will say I did enjoy, like, the questions and the, the answers we got to choose from. They weren't, like, traditional, personality test types of questions. It wasn't like a write yourself on a 1 to 10. That's really difficult. 00:39:40:20 - 00:40:08:18 Shaniqua Or agree or disagree, I hate those. But I took her her test and I rate it. The entrepreneur and my shadow was the big boss, so I felt like that was very, very spot on because I do feel that I've repressed my very assertive or direct ness. And I am someone who enjoys conflict because to me, it feels like I am able to get to know the person deeply when conflict arises. 00:40:08:18 - 00:40:11:09 Shaniqua It's an opportunity for us to go, oh, I didn't know that about you. 00:40:11:11 - 00:40:48:11 Stephanie So, I’m going to let you in on a little secret about the entrepreneur and the big boss. They are the most similar types on the test. Entrepreneurs are big bosses that are more capable of managing ambiguity and chaos. Big bosses, a little more dependent on structure and organization. Big bosses tend to be more authoritative and decisive in particular ways, but less connected with sort of the front line people. 00:40:48:11 - 00:41:08:10 Stephanie Right? Like especially the bigger the organization, the more further at least talks about the CEO being lonely. You know, he is right. He or she is, or they are. You know, they are lonely in many ways. Or is the entrepreneur is sort of they're used to pivoting quickly. They're used to making very quick decisions. They're they're not as risk averse. 00:41:08:12 - 00:41:33:14 Stephanie Right. The big boss is very risk averse, wants all the facts and kind of wants to understand how to mitigate that risk and things of that nature. Entrepreneurs, I think, can really develop into big bosses as, again, we talk about that transition of leadership, right? When you're truly an entrepreneur, you're truly building your own business. In the beginning, you're kind of wearing all the hats at once. 00:41:33:14 - 00:41:49:03 Stephanie You might have a couple of people that are team members that are working with you, or partners that are working with you, but for the most part, it's a very like dynamic energy. It's constant, you know, dynamic. And you have to be able to pivot. You have to be able to shift your market might change your business, might get some crisis. 00:41:49:03 - 00:42:16:04 Stephanie mini- technology crisis is going to happen every other week, I promise, especially during Mercury retrograde. So yeah, entrepreneurs, you know, are dealing with all that. But they're also having to navigate, you know, vendors and clients and employees and, you know, whereas big bosses get kind of more removed from that where they're more now dealing with their own stratosphere, you know, and so those are just things, you know, it's like that energy showing up so low for you. 00:42:16:06 - 00:42:32:16 Stephanie To me, that's knowing you the way that I do. And your second highest score was networker and it was very high. So he scored really high. Entrepreneur. That's like a great combo. You should be like this is why you start your own business, right? It's like, it's a great I'm going to start my own business combo. Oh yeah, I'll do it. 00:42:32:16 - 00:42:52:16 Stephanie Oh my god. All day long that big boss energy I think for you, when you're ready and you need to start accessing that energy and really expressing it, it's going to it's going to be accessible for you. It's something that you're going to be able to really tap into that. The key thing, though, is to notice what triggers you about it. 00:42:52:18 - 00:43:08:21 Stephanie Are you triggered by big bosses? Are you triggered by authoritarian people, or are you triggered by somebody who's maybe a little more distant or cold about their decision making or things like that? And so it's just kind of it's a way to examine your own behaviors and how you react to this energy. 00:43:08:23 - 00:43:41:03 Shaniqua That is so interesting. Okay. So I feel like naturally, I, I, I, I think there was one on a question of that. It's not that I dislike authority, it's why is there authority? I'm more of a autonomous where I think we can all make decisions for the greater good. And I remember growing up, my mom would micromanage me, like cleaning, doing my chores. 00:43:41:03 - 00:43:45:12 Shaniqua And that was my first and last fight with my mom. 00:43:45:14 - 00:44:01:19 Shaniqua She is a mom from the South, so that was my first and last. But I stood up for myself. I hate someone standing over my shoulder micromanaging me. And I use that word very appropriately. Sheet micromanaging. So I think that is my issue with. 00:44:01:19 - 00:44:28:16 Stephanie And and if you look at the so the way that the test presents data, it tells you, you know, what your scores are. And then for your highest score and your lowest score, it actually gives you kind of the, persona, you know, light aspects of that psyche. You know, what makes the psyche strong and empowered and then also the trigger aspects and one of the trigger aspects, you know, or what the shadow aspect of the big boss is micromanagement. 00:44:28:18 - 00:44:54:16 Stephanie So, a big boss who's, like, empowered and confident and can really step into that leadership space and is really balanced, say, well, maybe, you know, my my favorite combo. Also another great combo, big boss office parents. So we've got a third authority and empathy. It's a really strong company I am I'm going to make decisions and I'm going to have expectations. 00:44:54:18 - 00:45:11:13 Stephanie But I care about you, and I'm not trying to abuse you with my choices. Like, you know, it's just a really. And so it's looking at these combos, empathy, shadows of these, you know, the shadow of the big boss is micromanagement. I don't trust you. I don't have confidence enough to trust you. I don't have confidence enough to delegate. 00:45:11:13 - 00:45:30:16 Stephanie That's what micromanagement really expresses is a lack of confidence. And again, that goes back to, you know, if you have that level of emotional intelligence and you understand that your big boss is expressive, you know, because I talk to people all the time, we're like, I have to quit my job. My boss is micromanaging me. They're driving me insane. 00:45:30:16 - 00:45:45:10 Stephanie And, you know, I'll ask him like, you know, whatever your magic wish and, you know, whatever that is, it's like, you know, they stop being that way, or, you know, I get a great job or whatever. And I'll ask people like, okay, so let's say you get the great job. Like, let's say you move on, you get the great job. 00:45:45:12 - 00:46:03:08 Stephanie It's even better than this one. Like it's even, like more suited for your needs. Your perfect oh, the everything's great. And three weeks into it, the boss that hired you resigns and gets replaced by micromanager. Boss, do you quit? Are you done. 00:46:03:10 - 00:46:04:15 Shaniqua Right? 00:46:04:17 - 00:46:15:13 Stephanie How do you actually respond? To the micromanager. Instead of reacting and getting into a fight with your mom, notice. How do you. Yes. 00:46:15:15 - 00:46:17:11 Shaniqua How did it how could you neutralize your mother? 00:46:17:11 - 00:46:34:10 Stephanie But, you know, that's the thing is, when we're at work, this is so you. What you said is really key when you're at work reacting to that micromanager. Yeah. You're fighting with your mom. Yeah. That's all you're doing is fighting with your mom. You're not fighting with that mom. You're going back to, like, however old you were when you had, and. 00:46:34:12 - 00:46:36:03 Shaniqua I was 12. 00:46:36:05 - 00:46:59:16 Stephanie And probably, realistically, if that's the energy your mom and this is not mom, we love you. And we're not blaming anybody. And this is important to understand. I never approach any of these personas or any individual with judgment. Again, I have empathy for the bully. I have empathy for the triggered big boss. They're struggling. Yeah. You know, now I get it. 00:46:59:16 - 00:47:31:18 Stephanie I also have empathy for their victim. Very much so. I see I see both sides of what's happening there you know. But it doesn't serve as I mean yes there's there's again toxicity. There's, there's breaking laws. There's crappy integrity and toxicity. And then there's humans needing to learn how to function better in these spaces. Right. Like there's so it's like, how are we judging these different entities and individuals. 00:47:31:20 - 00:47:41:02 Stephanie And in, in again, are we able to bring any empathy to the table so that we can try to meet each other where we're at. Right. You know. 00:47:41:07 - 00:47:56:10 Shaniqua Well, Stephanie As we’re, wrapping up, if there is one actionable takeaway that employees and leaders alike could implement tomorrow to begin addressing individual and corporate shadows, what would it be. 00:47:56:11 - 00:48:32:22 Stephanie To start becoming more observant and less reactive? Give literally giving yourself space to understand what's happening and then taking time to respond. I mean, you know, it seems we're just all very, very, very emotionally reactive right now. And that energy just feeds that energy. It just keeps building it. And, you know, at some point we need to take a breath. 00:48:33:00 - 00:48:34:05 Shaniqua I need to slow down. 00:48:34:05 - 00:49:14:16 Stephanie We do. We very much did. This isn't sustainable. And, you know, to the degree that some people think that it is, sustainable for who and for how long and at what cost, and I think those are important questions that we should be asking holistically. You know, brand shadows affect us. I write about it in my book and I'll only touch on it briefly, but I use Boeing as an example of a brand shadow, where it doesn't just impact the company, it doesn't just impact the employees, it impacts an entire industry and the psychological safety of every single human on an airplane. 00:49:14:16 - 00:49:17:03 Shaniqua And yes. 00:49:17:04 - 00:49:49:03 Stephanie There needs to be accountability to that. That is not just, you know, when we talk about free market capitalism, there has to be checks and balances there. And there is a huge cost to our whole society of that level of toxicity. Like, that's true corporate toxicity. And there are other, you know, when when we explore and are the actual organizations in our next episode, we can really get a little bit more into what that looks like and what what types of organizations are expressing this toxicity. 00:49:49:03 - 00:49:57:06 Stephanie But it's something that we should be thinking about as a society and as individuals that are all working in this space. 00:49:57:08 - 00:50:01:02 Shaniqua Well, lastly, Stephanie, where can our audience find your book? 00:50:01:04 - 00:50:14:19 Stephanie It is on Amazon. And you can search my name Stephanie Crain and Brand Shadow. We'll have a link to it, in the sources of the podcast as well. So yeah. 00:50:14:21 - 00:50:22:15 Shaniqua Stephanie, it's like I am so privileged to be sitting across from you here holding your physical copy of your book. 00:50:22:15 - 00:50:24:11 Stephanie I am privileged for you to be doing that. 00:50:24:16 - 00:50:46:03 Shaniqua I'm really proud of you, Stephanie, to know you and to understand your journey, that it took to create Brand Shadow. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with myself and our audience. And please stay tuned for episode two of our three part series of Brand Shadows. Thank you Stephanie. 00:50:46:03 - 00:50:48:12 Stephanie Thank you and thank you everybody. 00:50:48:14 - 00:50:51:03 Shaniqua Get your book. 00:52:58:04 - 00:53:26:07