Harnessing Core Values: The Activation Talk

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:14 Stephanie You're listening to. From Illumination To Innovation, a revealing and provocative exploration of the rapidly shifting landscape of values purpose, leadership, and culture, both corporate and social. I'm your host, Stephanie Crain 00:00:15:17 - 00:00:31:23 Shaniqua And I'm your host, Shaniqua Brown. We're excited to have you join us as we shine a light on new perspectives, amplify voices of influence, and elevate bright ideas that will expand your idea of what's possible in business and beyond. 00:00:31:23 - 00:00:47:07 Shaniqua Hello, everyone. Welcome back to From Illumination To Innovation. I'm one of your co-hosts, Shaniqua Brown. and today's discussion is going to be about Harnessing Core Values.: The Activation Talk, Stephanie, can you take it from here. 00:00:47:13 - 00:01:14:26 Stephanie Thank you, Shaniqua. I am Stephanie Crain also the Corporate Mystic, and my company is Tapas Innovation. And I am very excited... We are very excited to have a guest today, Margot Wickersham and when Shaniqua and I met her, we were apparently wearing matching outfits, which made us easy to identify. We met Margot at Austin Startup Week, and both of us had, I think, independent, separate and fascinating conversations with Margot. 00:01:14:26 - 00:01:23:20 Stephanie So we agreed immediately. We wanted her on our show. So. Margot, welcome. And tell us a little bit about a little bit more about who you are and what you do. 00:01:23:26 - 00:01:43:29 Margot thanks so much for having me. I think one of the things that was interesting about Austin's Startup Week is the rich tapestry of people, backgrounds, talents and also phases of life. I think you have a sense about startups are 27 year old males, right? And there were some of those, but there was just this wide variety. Lots of women. 00:01:43:29 - 00:01:57:05 Margot There were people of all ages. And I love that. So I felt like that was a a far more interesting and diverse experience than I was expecting. And that led to a lot of great conversations. 00:01:57:09 - 00:02:07:17 Stephanie I felt that way, too, honestly. Yeah, it's a great event. And I think that Capital Factory kind of does engender that diversity in a lot of ways. Like it's - 00:02:07:17 - 00:02:08:10 Margot They’re good at the curating. 00:02:08:11 - 00:02:10:17 Stephanie They really are good at the curating. 00:02:10:20 - 00:02:24:04 Shaniqua Really good at that, because it was it went far beyond just meeting people and the connection, you know, just falling off. But here we are today. We were able to foster that connection. So we're super excited. 00:02:24:07 - 00:02:33:17 Margot Right. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So I am focused on the health insurance space, which sounds super boring but is really important. And 00:02:33:17 - 00:02:46:12 Margot It feels good to be part of a solution and I've been doing this for about five years with Clearwater, and before that my background is in marketing and sales Technology did a stint at Dell. 00:02:46:14 - 00:02:54:08 Margot I have been a remodeling contractor and more recently I wrote a book and which is available on Amazon. 00:02:54:14 - 00:02:54:26 Stephanie What's it called? 00:02:54:28 - 00:02:57:12 Margot Kindle or hardback? No, not hardback. Soft 00:02:57:12 - 00:03:02:11 Margot It's Gratitude in the Storm - When Not Dying is Enough to Keep Fighting. 00:03:02:18 - 00:03:07:27 Stephanie Wow, that sounds powerful and we will definitely have to get that on our book list immediately. 00:03:07:28 - 00:03:32:06 Margot It's a quick read. And it is. As an eternal optimist, I was brought to my knees with my battle, my battle with cancer in 2020 during quarantine so no one could come to the hospital with me. And I was in there for days and nights on end. It was really depressing and really upsetting and the cancer was life threatening. 00:03:32:10 - 00:03:51:05 Margot So that was a lot. And then life kept delivering blows. And I really got to the point where really I just don't like I can get up a lot of times, but I really can't get up one more time. And I feel like most of us can relate to that and how I realize that you don't need to feel empowered and strong to keep going. 00:03:51:12 - 00:04:04:08 Margot You just need to lay there and not die. And that's what I felt. Well, I could do that. I can quantify and say laying there not dying is something I can handle today anyway. It's meant to be inspiring, funny, make you cry, make you laugh. 00:04:04:12 - 00:04:32:05 Stephanie Yeah. One. It's also honestly, like when we think about how reactive we often feel like we have to be. And then there's something about recognizing that stillness is what will help you. And I think and I'm going to I'm going to use this. I mean, yes, this is possibly an awkward segue into our topic of perhaps during that time period, you had some time to evaluate your own personal values and the and what was really important to you during those moments. 00:04:32:05 - 00:04:37:04 Stephanie I'm wondering if you could maybe we could start this conversation with that?. 00:04:37:06 - 00:05:00:21 Margot 100% And I would say that's not an awkward segue because in fact, that's how I got through the next few moments at that moment in time and then later through days and and so on. And that was what's most important to me. And for me, it's the love of the people in my life, my family. I have now grown kids and they lost their father when they were in middle school. 00:05:00:21 - 00:05:29:29 Margot And it was horrible. It was horrible. He drank himself to death. So it was a terrible thing for them to experience for all of us. And I thought, I can't leave them. I need to I can't put that. I can't put them through that. So I've got to be here for them. So it was just out of a sense of love and duty and relationship to my kids and my husband and then eventually broadened that circle out to include the friends and other people. 00:05:30:01 - 00:05:34:17 Margot So love and relationships is what it was all about. And that's how I got through it. 00:05:34:20 - 00:05:46:19 Shaniqua How did you like define, like, what was that? How did you define your core values and how did you activate them while you were in the hospital? You know, like how did that happen? 00:05:46:21 - 00:06:05:12 Margot I think that the answer to that is I wasn't aware that's what I was doing, but I was aware of what felt I was using my intuition, I think, more than my business hat of what are my goals and what are my missions. Right. And I just felt at my core that this is what I've got to do. 00:06:05:19 - 00:06:27:11 Margot It's the relationships with people. I thought about what you hear everyone says on their deathbed, no one says, I wish I had achieved more. I wish I'd worked more. They always say it's about the love, it's about the relationships. And I'm a driven, ambitious girl I like achieving. That's really fun for me, goal oriented, but I'm also super relationship oriented. 00:06:27:11 - 00:06:45:09 Margot So that push and pull, I think it helps keep me balanced. And because I was in the throes of fighting for my life, I think it was easier for me because I was facing death to have that sort of deathbed clarity of what is important. 00:06:45:11 - 00:07:17:03 Stephanie You know, makes sense. It makes perfect sense. And it reminds me honestly of Steve Jobs and his story. And, you know, he was notoriously a very driven or authoritative, demanding leader, went out of bounds in the way that he led his organization, led them to great heights, great successes. And then he developed pancreatic cancer and did everything in his power and used all the money that he had and was not able to overcome that. 00:07:17:03 - 00:07:43:03 Stephanie And in the end, really echoed exactly what you said. You know, that all of this other stuff didn't matter. It didn't matter. And so that kind of leads me into this question of organizational values, really, you know, because when we've been kind of brought up in a corporate system where in the organizations themselves, you know, the only thing that matters is the bottom line. 00:07:43:03 - 00:08:07:18 Stephanie The only thing that matters is what the board needs. The only thing that matters is, you know, this, this, and that and not the people in it, not the person who is going through a great life crisis, who's rediscovering their own personal values. Right, Right. And and when we hear from I think, you know, people like Steve Jobs, who we've sort of all kind of put up there on a pedestal of an iconic leader an iconic corporate leader. 00:08:07:18 - 00:08:14:22 Stephanie But at the end, when it really mattered that the things that were most important were not his greatest successes. 00:08:14:25 - 00:08:43:03 Margot Exactly. And I think one of the things that points to is we maybe are more in touch with our core values during stress or during when when we're really fighting. And so I'm thinking, you know, what is it about going through a shared difficulty, hardship, emergencies that bonds people together, that you have that clarity of values, which is, you know, let's let's help each other. 00:08:43:03 - 00:09:03:23 Margot That's what we do. But then when we step back and we get wrapped up in every quarter makes a difference. My value is to the shareholder, and that makes it really hard to stay focused on, well, where's the where's the warm fuzzy? Where's the part that feels like I'm a human being interacting with human beings and especially in the business sense of things. 00:09:03:25 - 00:09:20:05 Margot So I feel like then you add on top of that, if you're in the world I'm in with health insurance, you've got a lot of what you have are about to be only four large insurance companies rather than five, because Humana and Cigna are about to reduce the number of large companies out there. I know. 00:09:20:08 - 00:09:21:08 Stephanie That that just makes my head hurt... 00:09:21:10 - 00:09:25:10 Margot I know it's not activating my core values for sure. 00:09:25:10 - 00:09:27:14 Stephanie No, go on. 00:09:27:16 - 00:10:04:00 Margot But in that space and we look at how a company like Humana's stock price has gone up 3,000% since the ACA launched. And you know that two thirds of bankruptcies are from medical bills and most of those people had insurance. Then this is not a this is not a scenario that feels good to anybody. And when we look at what role do employers have in directing health insurance and plans and all of that, you could argue why we have that that, you know, set up. 00:10:04:00 - 00:10:06:17 Margot I don't know why we do, but but we do. That's where we are now. 00:10:06:17 - 00:10:33:04 Stephanie You know, you’re bring up something literally very personal for me right now. I just had a family member or family experience where one of our younger family members avoided going to the hospital. They have a great job, they have great insurance, and they almost died because they have been conditioned that the cost is too much. They can't lose time on work. 00:10:33:04 - 00:10:55:16 Stephanie They can't be missing. If they missed, they're going to lose their important job. And really, honestly, like it came down to hours and they're still recovering right now. And it was so upsetting to me, like I could not wrap my I was you know, I was just like, God, if you die, you can't, like, blow those bills off. 00:10:55:19 - 00:11:11:26 Stephanie I mean, you know, like, if you live, you can choose to blow your bills off or set up a payment plan or pay them. But if you die, that choice is gone. And the fact that somebody would sort of put that value system in place out of conditioning was really upsetting to me. 00:11:11:26 - 00:11:36:05 Margot I can see how it would be. And you're right, that is out of conditioning and it's difficult in the employer employee relationship because we know that we have to respect the employer. They’re who, as I say to my kids, if they can give you a good or bad grade, if they can hire or fire you, then you need to pay attention to what they're doing and what they're asking you to do. 00:11:36:07 - 00:11:55:10 Margot But there in lies a lot of gray area, and I think that is where the gray area is, where we lose our sense of mission and purpose. And we wander off the reservation like your family member did, where like if she or he stood back and looked at that, you would you would think, well, that's insane. Why did I wait so long? 00:11:55:17 - 00:12:05:15 Margot Nothing gets better health wise with time, right? You know, I like to say if you see something, feel something, see something, hear something, anything. Go right away. Go 00:12:05:15 - 00:12:23:16 Shaniqua seen we live in Austin, which we have a lot of entrepreneurs and tech startups and, you know, going to hear a pitch. Everyone wants to change the world, right? And then you think about, well, what kind of benefits are you giving your employees? What kind of lives are your employees living? You know, your your 00:12:23:16 - 00:12:35:28 Shaniqua had a wonderful job, good paying job, a great benefits, but was in fear to use their benefits, you know, because of the maybe the costs or fear of that required that they would take more time off. 00:12:35:28 - 00:12:42:10 Shaniqua So how can we really say we're changing the world for not even valuing our employees that are helping us achieve that goal? 00:12:42:13 - 00:13:19:28 Stephanie And one thing this summer we had in Texas, anybody who was around Texas this summer and is still alive and didn't fry to death - raise your hand and pat yourself on the back. But in Texas this summer, you know, we had many, many months, almost of days, 105 plus it reached up to 115 degrees. So I saw reported on the news that men specifically between the age they had this summer, we had more emergency E.R. visits and heat related deaths with men between the ages of 35 and 55 because they were just pushing through. 00:13:20:00 - 00:13:41:05 Stephanie Most of them were working in the heat. They were just pushing through because of, again, conditioning like that. We have been so conditioned to devalue our own health, you know, for the greater good of the job. And again, it's like looking at the purpose of the job that you're working for. Is it worth your life? Right? It might be. 00:13:41:12 - 00:13:51:20 Stephanie I mean, there are some jobs that people give their lives for and there's there's a value system in place there. But is every like average corporate office cubicle job. 00:13:51:23 - 00:13:53:13 Shaniqua Or construction laborer, job. 00:13:53:13 - 00:14:14:22 Stephanie Construction, labor job or any you know, to the degree that the employer holds that much power over the individual? I think, you know what you were talking about earlier. It's like, yeah, they can give you the grade. They have this, but it's like they really control your actual health, you know, your actual well-being in many, many ways. And I think that that system is out of balance in that way. 00:14:14:27 - 00:14:43:16 Margot I think that's a really good point. And you're also underscoring that men are conditioned just socially, at least in Western culture, to be stoic. And that's a whole another 55 or two or so topic. So there's a whole lot of topics there. But I'm recalling a study I, I read about when I was working for an ad agency that was focused on emerging technologies in the pharmaceutical space. 00:14:43:19 - 00:15:07:14 Margot And so this was a sunscreens going back 20 years and men get skin cancer more often than women because in they die from it more often because they wait, they feel like asking or letting somebody help them is a sign of weakness. Now, it's not really each individual's problem or they're not the cause of that. That's the conditioning that you're talking about. 00:15:07:16 - 00:15:36:24 Margot And I guess where we have agency individually is choosing to have awareness of the conditioning and then choosing what we want to do about that. And I think a lot of employers do not intend for their workers to choose to be unhealthy over taking care of themselves. So it's part of that. We have to understand our own boundaries physically, mentally, emotionally, so that we can expect others to enforce it. 00:15:36:28 - 00:16:04:21 Stephanie You know, workaholism and overworking is a trauma response. Right. Like it's it's it's really been like linked back to, you know, people who are going to work like 60 and 70 hours a week and really just is they're avoiding emotional. They're really not processing emotions and in our corporate society and the way that we so you might care greatly about your employees, but you are a workaholic and you're the leader of that company leader. 00:16:04:28 - 00:16:28:11 Stephanie Leadership drives culture, right? Culture is going to drive your brand. Right. And if you are a workaholic, well, you're going to set that culture of workaholism right out of the gate, because who's not going to do what the boss does, right? The bosses. And if you're a boss who takes care of yourself, if you're a boss who sets boundaries and structures, time delegates properly, creates trust well, you're going to create that culture as well. 00:16:28:11 - 00:16:48:15 Stephanie You know, I mean, like the opportunities there are. But I think a lot of times we have people that are in leadership. That, you know, really haven't had the ability or the capacity to recognize how much of their own trauma they're projecting into their environment. And then we get toxic companies, You know I say, all the time, Like nobody ever wakes up and says, God, I want to start a toxic company today. 00:16:48:15 - 00:16:54:20 Margot So much, so much like this is my lifelong goal and my heart. 00:16:54:22 - 00:17:01:20 Stephanie I can think of like six guys. Okay, but we're not going to talk about him today. Okay. 00:17:01:23 - 00:17:21:15 Margot I know. I think you're so right. And it's back to the lack of awareness. I think a lot of leaders have Most people I think, have good intentions mostly. And let's say that most leaders have good intentions. Mostly it's a lack of awareness. They don't realize that they're having a trauma response and working long hours or what have you. 00:17:21:15 - 00:17:23:17 Margot They don't realize they are setting the stage. 00:17:23:18 - 00:17:24:09 Stephanie They've been told it was good. 00:17:24:09 - 00:17:32:10 Margot ...and they were. I come from a workaholic family. Absolutely. Me too. I used to say that working hard was our love language. 00:17:32:15 - 00:17:36:14 Stephanie You know, it was. And pain is weakness leaving the body. Sorry, that. 00:17:36:15 - 00:17:46:07 Shaniqua Yeah, it sounds like for the most part we haven’t activated our individual core values to then have collective core values. 00:17:46:07 - 00:18:11:29 Margot I think you're right about that. And that is part of maybe I hope there's a bit of an awakening happening in in Western culture, I think. And it is and maybe part of the baby step is I do something that matters. I'm going to help change the world. And I think what's starting to occur, what I'm seeing is that there's an awareness of I've got to put the mask on me first if I don't take care of me. 00:18:11:29 - 00:18:26:18 Margot And this is a mom and a dad thing, too. And I remember thinking, there are enough hours in the day. My kids are little. My husband at the time is traveling. And it wasn't a weakness to ask. I had a friend. I had touchstone friends who said, No, it's not a weakness to ask for help. You need to run away every now and then. 00:18:26:23 - 00:18:52:09 Margot You can't do it all alone. But I thought I was expected to. That's the conditioning that I got. Absolutely. And I was able to because I had friends that I could listen to, access my own agency and make my own determination about what are those boundaries, how do I take care of myself? And then I learned, and what's even greater about this is I'm showing my kids or employees choose either one how to take care of yourself. 00:18:52:09 - 00:18:53:25 Margot And that that is the model to copy. 00:18:53:28 - 00:18:54:20 Shaniqua Yes. 00:18:54:23 - 00:19:12:07 Stephanie Very much so. So what's happening right now? What do we think is happening right now in business today? We're not. I think we're in a big transitional shift. Things are. Yeah, I mean, like it is it is is like earth earth shifting at that level. But what is the shift like? What's your perspective on that? 00:19:12:11 - 00:19:37:00 Margot That's a really interesting question. And that could be probably several podcasts. There's a lot to go and untease from that, I, I feel like there is this awareness. I feel like we've gotten to kind of a inflection point. There is a point where the pain is great enough that you're willing to look at other options, which is where I was when I was willing to say, okay, I could die. 00:19:37:00 - 00:19:59:20 Margot What can I do to not die today? Right. But we don't know. We won't go through the discomfort and the learning and the gaining awareness if we aren’t forced to, for the most part. So I think that's part of what's happening is it's forcing people to look at things that they haven't before and hustle culture, everybody's kind of going, I don't know if that's the right way to do it or not. 00:19:59:24 - 00:20:10:25 Margot That doesn't feel healthy. So I am seeing, especially now that I have 20 something year old and they don't want to they don't want that part of it. They don't they don't want to just worship hustle culture. 00:20:10:29 - 00:20:14:14 Stephanie What do you say to the business leader who says that they're just being lazy? 00:20:14:17 - 00:20:30:06 Margot You know, that's well, you have to look at it. If you don't feel sense, understand that it is not lazy, that it is healthy, and that you get higher productivity out of people. If you don't understand that, then just look at the science. 00:20:30:06 - 00:20:30:27 Stephanie Yeah. 00:20:30:29 - 00:20:47:21 Margot And the science says that there is a point of diminishing returns and that's what hustle culture is about, is going past when you have diminishing returns because you get a badge of honor, you get more pats on the back. Right? 00:20:47:24 - 00:21:02:21 Stephanie This goes back to why the whole hustle culture. The over work is really a trauma response because you're really trying to get these needs met that weren't met at a very early point in your life. Right. And you’re conditioned that this is a way to get it met. You know. 00:21:02:24 - 00:21:20:10 Shaniqua As a social scientist, I would say that looking at it from a different perspective, we've tried it. You know, people have tried the hustle culture, so and it just hasn't worked. Yeah. You know, instead of saying they're lazy, we can see that they have tried it, right? Maybe. Let's go back to the drawing board to see if there's other solutions that we could figure out, too. 00:21:20:13 - 00:21:20:20 Shaniqua That's a. 00:21:20:20 - 00:21:44:12 Margot Great point. Yeah. I can say within my my own family, my son looked at my father, his grandfather, who he didn't he didn't do that. Well. My father was not a not a very aware person. This is a man who had a job for 40 years that he hated. And both of my kids said, I don't want to be your dad, who also didn't have a relationship with his children. 00:21:44:15 - 00:22:05:15 Margot So they saw firsthand it was in their face. And I think when you get an example of what not to be, that really helps clarify what you do want to be. Sometimes it's knowing what is not the path, right as much as well. If that's not the path I know to just avoid that altogether. Sometimes that is just the information you need to keep going. 00:22:05:18 - 00:22:25:19 Stephanie So, you know, I'm curious if we talk about actually activating individual values that when we talk about corporate values, I mean, a lot of times when we think about corporate values, it seems very crafted and curated. And, you know, we've we've worked with our brand manager and together this wonderful spirit, these five things, these like very important things that we. 00:22:25:19 - 00:22:51:16 Stephanie And their search engine optimization. Exactly. And so from that perspective, you know, I mean, okay, it's great. It's great to have defined values as a business, but how do how does it become more than just words on paper? How our values act harnessed, as we say, harnessed and then truly activated throughout the organizational ecosystem. And, you know, my core belief is it starts with leadership. 00:22:51:16 - 00:23:22:17 Stephanie It has to. But what if what if it doesn't like what you know, what does the middle manager of an organization do when they're sort of caught in that rock and a hard place? How can they impact culture and really start to express values like does it? You know, like I feel like, you know, when we talk about looking at things from a different perspective, it's like we can’t get the leaders to open their eyes and to have that awareness and get past that just initial stage fright, you know, how can we work with different levels of the organization to really empower people? 00:23:22:22 - 00:24:01:24 Margot That's a great question because most of us aren't working for the top, you know, C-suite Yeah. And what and you can't do anything about whatever is or isn't that culture. So what can you do? It comes back to what can you control in your environment. And I think that let's take a middle manager, for example. You can control your immediate day, the actions that you take, the priorities that you show people are your priorities by the actions that you take and so encouraging others and complimenting them on doing things that are within the core values when they show that they are taking agency for their own, what makes them then? 00:24:01:27 - 00:24:26:11 Margot Yeah. And also recognize when they're they're staying true to themselves while also accessing the values that the company wants them to have. I think when those two things align, it's just like anything else. Why not just positively reinforce the good and maybe don't mention the bad unless you really need to. Others are getting hurt or you see somebody else getting hurt. 00:24:26:13 - 00:24:53:07 Stephanie As you know, as an I, I've been a high level executive, worked my way up through the ranks doing that. And one of the things that I always just in kind of it take it for granted or just this is the way things I expected those values to be real. Like I really demanded accountability around those values, you know, And I would go or I would walk in, you know, hierarchy be damned. 00:24:53:07 - 00:25:00:20 Stephanie I would go to the president and be like, explain this to me. And he'd be like, Who are you? 00:25:00:23 - 00:25:29:28 Shaniqua Well, that’s how employees., like, look for their jobs. That's how they assess whether or not this is going to be a fit for them. So I think you have every right to hold the company accountable for the core values that they advertise. So I think that's 100% fair. And, you know, Margot, and you shared earlier that in middle management, like how can how can they help, you know, essentially shield, you know, the individual contributors from everything else by having their own core values? 00:25:30:05 - 00:25:56:14 Shaniqua I've had that experience with the with the manager that lived the company's core values and our team hired based on the company's core values. And when we were, you know, questioned by other teams, you know, the manager shielded us from those conversations and was able to stand on the core values. So when their peers or their skip lead went to the leadership, what could they stand on? 00:25:56:14 - 00:25:59:11 Shaniqua Because they are operating in the organization's core values. 00:25:59:11 - 00:26:22:10 Margot So even if other parts of the company are not, I mean, it is what is our personal responsibility? What can we do? What can we impact? And when you're a leader of any level, you are impacting by example and encouraging people, I think, who doesn't like to feel encouraged and like they're the people they work for are pleased with their work, right? 00:26:22:17 - 00:26:56:28 Stephanie I also often coach people to learn how to manage up right. If your leader does not have the emotional skills to truly lead right. And if they are just being a micromanager or if they're very, very focused on details because they don't really understand the bigger picture, that's an opportunity. You know, I think a lot of people in the corporate space, they kind of default to victim mode a little bit because their paychecks are kind of being held, you know, So it's really easy to like kind of find that spot of like, you know, I'm stuck. 00:26:57:00 - 00:27:17:02 Stephanie My experience has always been like, the minute that you think that if I do something, I'm going to get fired, then you should already assume you're fired or that you've quit that job because it is simply a matter of time. Because if you've already got that, if you've got that like heart set fear and you're in yourself, it's just going to be a matter of time before it happens. 00:27:17:02 - 00:27:34:24 Stephanie It's just a matter of whether or not you control it or somebody else controls it, you know, and and for my first I have is I know that I'm, again, not the norm. I have never had a job when I left a job because I always left jobs on value based reasons when when when it was not a mutually serving situation. 00:27:34:27 - 00:27:53:06 Stephanie And I was not going to be able to grow in that space or worse, it was causing me harm. There's a cost to that. There's a cost to that And for me, I it was always very easy for me to say I value myself more. But I think we have a society that really doesn't condition towards that. 00:27:53:11 - 00:28:24:20 Margot Yeah, I think you're so right. I think we have a society that conditions the opposite. You know, going back to what we talked about in the beginning is you're sort of beholden to what your supervisor or parents, you know, have are telling you you need to do. And having agency over that. I see more of that with the younger generations, and I think that's a good thing to be able to question respectfully, but to call them on it, you know, and to be able to say, I am so aware what my core values are, that when I'm not in alignment, I have to leave is amazing. 00:28:24:20 - 00:28:38:01 Margot And the exception, as you note, you're the exception. And I think that it speaks to how tied we are to our work environments. Yes, yes, yes. We all know that we spend more time with the work people than we do with our families. 00:28:39:26 - 00:29:15:15 Margot We have we do have some, I guess, responsibility to not only ourselves but to our team and then to our supervisors to hold them accountable and to say, look, you know, one of the core values here is that you care about your people. And I feel like you are not showing me that you care about your people when you expect me to work long hours and to skip going to the doctor, coming back to your family member, if that leader outright expected that kind of work ethic and for them to expect to not take care of themselves, that is heinous. 00:29:15:15 - 00:29:23:10 Stephanie Yeah, And I don't even think that they did. Honestly, I don't at all. I really believe that that was just the conditioning. Exactly. of what we all kind of assume. 00:29:23:10 - 00:29:34:11 Margot So just being aware that that is the conditioning that's out there and then we can choose what to do about it. It's sort of like you can't change the way you were raised, but you get to a point where you go, okay, well, that's the hand I was dealt. 00:29:34:12 - 00:29:36:27 Stephanie You get to change the way you know, you get to change the way you move forward. 00:29:36:27 - 00:29:38:29 Margot You do? Yeah. That we have full control over. 00:29:38:29 - 00:30:05:27 Shaniqua And it makes it so go with me here. I love my I love history and, you know, combining disciplines, see, like seek answers. But it sounds like we're all for like the majority of us are conditioned into like working hard. But when we think about, like history, there was a monarch that came here, and then we have America and there's 1% that doesn't work in that sense of time. 00:30:06:04 - 00:30:27:24 Shaniqua And for the most part, the majority of us worked and we worked with our head down. You just had I guess it wasn't until like the early 1900s where there was a eight hour workday versus a 16 hour workday. So we no wonder we've been conditioned to overwork ourselves for an exchange of money, whether it was free labor. 00:30:27:24 - 00:30:37:10 Shaniqua But we were forced to do it to, you know, some corporate jobs, pay six figures. But there has always been an exchange for over working ourselves. 00:30:37:13 - 00:30:40:28 Margot That's a really good point. And it's it's intrinsic. It's in. 00:30:40:28 - 00:30:42:09 Stephanie Our generational trauma. 00:30:42:10 - 00:31:06:10 Margot To DNA. Yes, it is. And if you think about the stories that the people who came here, you know, your ancestors, these are traumatic stories. Regardless how you look at it. Yeah. And then, you know, like mine were trying to escape. Well, they were going to kill them because they were Protestants, you know, that kind of thing. And so then it was like all of that hard work just got reinforced. 00:31:06:13 - 00:31:09:09 Margot And. Yeah, and you're right, generational trauma. 00:31:09:12 - 00:31:09:23 Stephanie Which I. 00:31:09:23 - 00:31:10:28 Margot Can choose to break, though. 00:31:10:28 - 00:31:11:10 Stephanie You know. 00:31:11:10 - 00:31:13:06 Shaniqua I think will and we have we. 00:31:13:09 - 00:31:38:19 Stephanie Are we are doing it. And part of what you're describing is a need for survival. So when you're, you know, escaping, you know, being killed or, you know, when you're pulling your, you know, entire culture out of enslavement, this this is survival. So and the conditioning that comes with survival doesn't leave us easily. You know, it's it's our ego is like, this keeps me alive. 00:31:38:19 - 00:31:58:13 Stephanie I must keep doing it. I must keep doing it, you know, even and so I think, you know, as we've moved in to, you know, again, this corporate space where, you know, we're not having to like literally grow and create or I mean, we could and we probably should be more involved with growing and creating our own foods and things like that. 00:31:58:13 - 00:32:04:03 Stephanie But we do have a lot of conveniences, yet we're still in survival mode. 00:32:04:05 - 00:32:05:16 Margot So it's a great point. 00:32:05:16 - 00:32:18:02 Stephanie You know, and I feel that that is really holding us back when we talk about how we express values. Organizations know that if they hold us in survival mode, they can control us more. 00:32:18:04 - 00:32:43:23 Margot That is making me think of something really interesting. So the agents of change can sometimes be because within the culture and sometimes they come from legislation. So I look at my peers at work today where the men get paternity leave. my gosh, that is amazing. I don't think woe is me. My husband didn't get to do that because 25 years ago we didn't have it. 00:32:43:23 - 00:32:46:18 Margot I think look at the gains and I. 00:32:46:18 - 00:32:47:04 Stephanie Agree with that. 00:32:47:08 - 00:33:13:10 Margot So there are so many places where either it's coming from one source or another, but we are embracing change and balance into life. What did I read? There was a woman who. yeah, it was a woman I talked to at Austin Startup Week. She knows of a woman who just got the same amount of maternity leave at the company that her husband was going to get. 00:33:13:17 - 00:33:29:17 Margot And she's the one with the baby. She's growing, you know, So but these are these things are evolving. I mean, for there to even be there was definitely squat in the field to have the baby keep pulling. You know, that's that's the way it was. And women are so strong that we would just like I guess we got to do it now. 00:33:29:17 - 00:33:55:17 Margot Got two mouths to feed, you know. So I think that it's interesting, sometimes the growth comes from within because of magnanimous and wonderful cultural values that leadership embrace. And sometimes it comes from outside of the organization as a standard. And these like the legislation and these changes raise the standard, and then that becomes the norm. And then you're a bad employer if you don't embrace that new standards. 00:33:55:17 - 00:34:14:29 Margot Sure. So you talked about the long workdays. Also, children, you know, eight year olds working in factories where they lock the doors, you know, and they worked all day. So things are improving all the time, I feel like. And sometimes it's against maybe the norm. Maybe it's like, you know, okay, you're making me kicking and screaming as a leader. 00:34:15:05 - 00:34:28:00 Margot Embrace some of these new ways to show that I care for my employees, but I'm doing it. And now that becomes the new set point and and then that shows people around you. 00:34:28:02 - 00:34:38:04 Stephanie So tell me, Margo, why should businesses even care about harnessing and activating values? Like, why does it matter right? 00:34:38:07 - 00:35:05:04 Margot It matters because it affects the bottom line. So that's why if you are a business person and it is all about the profit, you need to care, even if you don't care because churn is very expensive. So hiring, training and losing people is very expensive. And churn is what happens when you don't have a good culture. When you say you have values that you don't live, when you have toxic expectations, when you don't take care of your people. 00:35:05:07 - 00:35:19:10 Margot So having the understanding that having values benefits, everything that's going get, it's going to help attract the right candidates to start with, but also keep them is key to your bottom line. 00:35:19:12 - 00:35:36:17 Stephanie And I you know, Shaniqua. and I, I think we maybe mentioned this on a previous show, but LinkedIn came out with a survey. Recently I saw 87% of Gen Z would leave a job to go to another job that had values that were more aligned with theirs. So when you're talking about churn, that's only going to get more, more CHURNY... 00:35:36:21 - 00:35:39:04 Margot We're turning the churn factor is going up. 00:35:39:05 - 00:35:40:02 Stephanie It's only going up. 00:35:40:02 - 00:36:01:24 Margot I think that's partly the shift we're talking about, which is how much am I willing to tolerate as an employee for the values to not sink with mine, to feel undervalued. Nobody likes to feel undervalued, and we all want to feel like we matter. Even if we don't, we'd like to even if we know that this is not even a really caring thing. 00:36:01:27 - 00:36:11:09 Margot We want to feel like it does matter. So it matters a lot that employers look at what's important and then be there. And it's not the snacks. 00:36:11:12 - 00:36:16:28 Stephanie It's not snacks and ping pong tables as well. I think that concerns to that like kind of cultivated culture. 00:36:17:05 - 00:36:17:15 Margot Yeah. 00:36:17:16 - 00:36:30:26 Stephanie Where, you know, if you if you really are truly authentically expressing your values that culture is going to happen organically and in a really beautiful way when you're you know, when you have. 00:36:30:26 - 00:36:31:27 Margot To force it where you're. 00:36:31:27 - 00:36:54:10 Stephanie Forcing it. Because really what you're trying to do is hide things in that sense. You're trying to cover up the brand shadow, if you will, and like the things that the brand really isn't valuing. And so you put all of these shiny objects in place and as distractions and distractions, you know, we are a distracted society. So distractions really are losing even their impact anymore. 00:36:54:10 - 00:37:09:11 Stephanie It's like, I'm sorry, how many times can you distract me in a second with 70,000 pieces of information? You know, it's like those distractions just simply don't work anymore. You know, we have conveniences. We can go play ping pong, we can go get soda. You know, it's well, you can. 00:37:09:11 - 00:37:09:24 Margot Play it on your. 00:37:09:24 - 00:37:11:13 Stephanie Phone exactly what you want and you can. 00:37:11:13 - 00:37:12:15 Margot Have the snack delivered. 00:37:12:15 - 00:37:18:00 Stephanie So, you know, or you could be at your home comfortably working from home and like, drinking your favorite. tea Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 00:37:18:00 - 00:37:24:09 Shaniqua So not having to sit in rush hour traffic, that sounds wonderful. You know, so for some people, right. 00:37:24:12 - 00:37:34:24 Stephanie I'm sorry, not having to be in an environment where anybody is willing to microwave tuna fish. No, I'm sorry. Thank you. This, this is it right here, we should not. 00:37:34:27 - 00:37:38:19 Margot Feel like that should be in everybody's culture. That you don't do that. 00:37:38:21 - 00:37:40:19 Stephanie It's a value system. Okay. 00:37:46:21 - 00:38:09:12 Stephanie my God. Ladies, this has been great. I you know, I think the. I just want to end. Like, I for me, values are where everything starts. And and I think there were everything ends. And, you know, if you don't understand your own personal values, if you don't recognize the enormity of negotiation that goes on with your values because everywhere you go, you are negotiating values. 00:38:09:12 - 00:38:33:27 Stephanie And that's okay. Values are things that I think are negotiable. What you value when you're 20 is different than what you value when you're 40 is different than what you value when you're 60. And and it's you should be constantly kind of checking in with yourself. But as organizations, those values need to have more weight. Those values need to have more permanence, and they need to really, truly carry a through an action. 00:38:33:27 - 00:38:35:24 Stephanie They really, really do. I believe that deeply. 00:38:35:24 - 00:38:56:24 Margot And that's a really good point, because what you're talking about is basically, don't listen to what I say, Pay attention to what I do. And that's how values are truly activated, is it's what are your actions? And if those are backed up and whatever your actions are, those are actually your values. So you have got to start with what you're doing. 00:38:56:25 - 00:39:15:27 Margot That's exactly and work backwards. But you're talking about also how values can be fluid. And there's times when you can push some forward and some aside. And that's true in a work environment, too. There are times when maybe you are putting in longer hours because there's a deadline and something's really important and everybody pulls together and we don't mind doing it. 00:39:15:27 - 00:39:19:23 Margot Sometimes we don't want that to be. Then what's expected is the. 00:39:19:23 - 00:39:21:05 Stephanie Norm, right? Absolutely. 00:39:21:07 - 00:39:47:06 Shaniqua It sounds like we we're in a place where we we've been distracted to imagine constantly working ourselves over and over. And it just seems like we need to rest and discover and define our core values individually and and trust ourselves to know that we are aligned with what we need to be and do and then lead in love because everyone's just doing their best. 00:39:47:06 - 00:39:56:17 Shaniqua And if we can individually, you know, work through ourselves and define what we what resonates with theirs, they'll be a lot easier for us to navigate the world. Am I? 00:39:56:19 - 00:40:14:25 Margot I think that is such a great point. What you're talking about is really it's personal responsibility for our own core values is what I hear you saying. We can't change what goes on in the company and certainly not at the leadership unless we're sitting at the table and be able to just say, well, I I'm going to be in tune with myself. 00:40:14:27 - 00:40:22:06 Margot And that's really important. That's not an indulgence. That's respect for me and the rest of the people that I encounter every day. 00:40:22:09 - 00:40:32:24 Stephanie Ladies, I think that is the point that we're going to end on. We lead in love and Margaret, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. 00:40:32:24 - 00:40:36:28 Margot My absolute delight have me back Any time. You all are so fine. Thank you for an interesting interview. 00:40:37:04 - 00:40:48:18 Stephanie And thank you, everybody for listening. And like us, follow us, share us, do all the cool things, make us gold, make us go wild. Okay. 00:40:48:18 - 00:40:59:01 Shaniqua Thanks for listening to our show. Show us your support by following us on your favorite podcast platform, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:40:59:03 - 00:41:16:23 Stephanie You can also find us on https://from-illumination-to-innovation.castos.com/ If you love our show, share it with your friends and coworkers too. Let's all work together to help businesses... Shaniqua and Stephanie Vibrate Higher!