Play Hard, Make a Mess, Learn Fast: Reinventing Corporate Culture One Imperfect Step at a Time

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:11 Stephanie What if everything you believed about success, title, grind money? What if it was all a lie? 00:00:09:13 - 00:00:22:16 Shaniqua In today's episode, we're cracking open hustle culture and redefining what it means to thrive in a world where job security is fleeting and burnout is branded as ambition. 00:00:22:17 - 00:00:24:00 Forms. 00:00:24:02 - 00:00:28:02 Stephanie Burnout as ambition. That's my favorite topic, I think. 00:00:28:04 - 00:00:29:12 Well. 00:00:29:13 - 00:00:53:08 Shaniqua I don't know about you, but during the pandemic, I felt the burnout of work. I was. I worked 60 hours a week. I felt like I was never going to get it like a golden star. More than 100% of my bonus. And I was really I felt successful. You know, and at the end of the day, all I had was exhaustion and disappointment. 00:00:53:09 - 00:00:54:07 00:00:54:09 - 00:01:22:19 Stephanie Yeah, I, I'm really excited about this topic because I think we are right on the precipice of truly redefining success. And you know, I think I was telling you before the show I have a memory growing up, you know, I was raised in a really capitalistic corporate family. And the motto in my family was, the one who dies with the most toys wins und. 00:01:22:21 - 00:01:36:23 Stephanie And it really, you know, from a value perspective that just for me, as I grew older and started to to determine what success meant for me, I realized that didn't really align for my own personal values. 00:01:37:01 - 00:01:52:19 Shaniqua Have you? I think there is what I'm seeing on social media. There is a change and people are foregoing hustle culture, and I hear that we may have a guest that could help provide more clarity. 00:01:52:21 - 00:02:17:22 Stephanie We don't just have a guest, we have the guest to have this conversation. So let me let me take a moment to introduce Melissa Dinwiddie. And I'm going just straight read her bio y'all. Because you know me I'm very I work better with words. So Melissa Dinwiddie helps leaders and teams turn the impossible into reality by unlocking their creative potential. 00:02:18:00 - 00:02:52:23 Stephanie A Juilliard trained dancer turned innovation strategist, she draws from a rich background as a professional artist, jazz singer, songwriter, and improv performer. And yes, we will be doing a brief, improper, yet unknown piece. Melissa works with companies like Google, meta, and Salesforce to build cultures of bold experimentation, collaboration, and resilience. She's the author of The Creative Sandbox Way and a sought after keynote speaker known for interactive experiences that spark insight and action. 00:02:53:01 - 00:03:01:02 Stephanie When she's not helping others innovate, you'll find her making art or jamming on bass and ukulele, sometimes at the same time. Oh my God. Melissa. 00:03:01:03 - 00:03:04:09 Shaniqua Impressive. Welcome to the show, Melissa. 00:03:04:11 - 00:03:17:02 Melissa Thank you so much for having me. I am so delighted to be here. You know any any podcast with the title From Illumination to Innovation. Just warms my heart and is the right place for me to be. 00:03:17:02 - 00:03:18:13 So here. 00:03:18:13 - 00:03:20:07 Shaniqua You are. Welcome. 00:03:20:09 - 00:03:22:17 Stephanie We are like peas in a pod here, I swear to God. 00:03:22:17 - 00:03:24:03 Yeah. So I'm. 00:03:24:03 - 00:03:32:06 Stephanie Curious. So jump into don't you jump into the conversation that we were just having. Like, what are your thoughts on how success gets defined and how it's about. 00:03:32:08 - 00:04:03:01 Melissa You know, it's it's really interesting because I was just thinking about that phrase, the person with the most toys wins, you know, and I was just thinking about that the other day. I can't I was like cleaning my house or something. And that is so anathema to everything about the way that I operate in the world. But I don't know if you've noticed, but there are some people who are kind of at the top of the heap right now and where, where, where I live in the United States, that's how they operate. 00:04:03:03 - 00:04:05:20 And, it's causing, a. 00:04:05:20 - 00:04:06:07 Melissa Few little. 00:04:06:07 - 00:04:08:19 Problems. You. 00:04:08:19 - 00:04:29:09 Stephanie Know, I think it's an interesting thing because in my experience, and this isn't true, I mean, I hate to make generalized statements because obviously there's anything can be true. But in my experience, when I meet somebody who's really focused on having the most toys, they really seem unfulfilled in so many different aspects of their life. 00:04:29:11 - 00:04:39:00 Shaniqua Yeah, well, because you're constantly going, there's a carrot dangling and nothing's ever enough because I think what they're looking for is really in here. 00:04:39:02 - 00:05:06:11 Stephanie Yeah, it's very externalized. Right? It's an externalized way of feeling successful, but it it's sort of like, you can have this, I guess, visual, you know, recognition of something that you've done. But at the end of the day, if you're lonely or disconnected or you don't feel purpose in the work that you're doing, you're never those toys aren't ever going to matter. 00:05:06:13 - 00:05:19:05 Stephanie And then you're going and you're going to die. And it's like the toy isn't the legacy. And so that's the other big things here. It's like, what are you leaving behind? A whole bunch of stuff that's going to get sold at an auction, or. 00:05:19:05 - 00:05:20:09 Melissa You're not taking the toys with. 00:05:20:09 - 00:05:21:22 Stephanie You? Yeah. You're not taking the toys with you. 00:05:22:01 - 00:05:43:03 Shaniqua Exactly. Well, Melissa, in your opinion, do you see that we are like this current model of hoarding toys that defines success is that currently, like, I guess, transitioning into something else, or are we still on that same path as this collective now? 00:05:43:03 - 00:05:46:20 Stephanie Because that is that still a relevant statement right now? 00:05:46:22 - 00:05:53:22 Melissa So here's the reality as I see it. I think humans can of human and I think for. 00:05:53:22 - 00:05:54:13 Stephanie People all the. 00:05:54:13 - 00:05:55:07 Time. 00:05:55:09 - 00:06:19:06 Melissa For people all the time. And I don't think that that frozen need is going to go away until we, you know, solve that, that frozen need that people have that that's a very, very deep need for connection that in some people is is broken. 00:06:19:07 - 00:06:20:06 00:06:20:08 - 00:06:32:14 Melissa And I mean, I'm not I don't know how to solve it. I don't have the answers. But those people for whom that is broken are going to keep trying to solve it through, you know, going after the all the toys. 00:06:32:16 - 00:07:01:12 Stephanie And you know it. And this is we talk about success, right. And how how grounded is that success in reality. You know, like is, you know, you have a job that could go away at any time or the market can turn and all of a sudden all of your investments have now shifted. Or, you know, it's like these things that we again, externalize as we externalize what we think successes. 00:07:01:14 - 00:07:28:21 Stephanie But it's very fragile, right? Like it seems like a very fragile thing and something that we might have some control over, but that we also might not have any control over at all in some cases. I think I think that that and in and of itself, you know, if people understood that more for themselves, like really that they have more power than they realize, you know, like that self-empowerment, that sense of self-empowerment and that, that success coming from within. 00:07:28:22 - 00:07:38:08 Stephanie I think if people understood that, they would maybe approach sort of even that hustle culture or the way that they approach their own careers a little bit differently. 00:07:38:10 - 00:07:48:06 Melissa Yeah. It's really challenging, isn't it, because we're swimming in this soup that's very hard for us to see. It's like fish don't understand water because they're swimming in it. 00:07:48:06 - 00:07:48:23 Shaniqua Right. 00:07:49:01 - 00:08:03:13 Melissa And we're swimming in this soup of, you know, white supremacist, patriarchal culture. Yes. That tells us that in order, you know, that success looks like this certain thing. 00:08:03:19 - 00:08:04:04 Stephanie Yes. 00:08:04:09 - 00:08:12:09 Melissa Capitalist capitalism, you know, going after the, the car and the the job in the biggest. 00:08:12:09 - 00:08:13:21 Stephanie Title, the biggest, the. 00:08:13:21 - 00:08:41:00 Melissa Biggest title, the lots of money. You know, the, I don't know, the vacation Tahiti or what, I don't know, whatever. Whatever we see in the magazines and the and the advertisements and all of that, and and pushing against that is really hard. And stepping back and saying, actually, what makes me feel happy and satisfied is kind of the opposite of that. 00:08:41:02 - 00:08:52:23 Melissa That's really hard to get in touch with that, when everything around you is saying, this is the definition of success, this is the definition of happiness. 00:08:53:01 - 00:09:10:04 Stephanie And that definition is wrapped up in fear of not having it. And so when you really yeah, when you do try to like tap into that more internal thing, you're, you know, you're conditioned to fear that loss, of whatever. Yeah. Well, you know, whatever that is. 00:09:10:06 - 00:09:38:13 Melissa Let's there's the reality of you have to feed yourself, you have to clothe yourself, and you have to provide shelter for yourself and and how to do that inside of a system that, you know, we're all living in the system. So some people have figured out to how to operate outside of this system. But if you are still going to operate to some degree inside of this system, how are you going to do that. 00:09:38:15 - 00:09:54:18 Shaniqua 100%? I mean, when I decades ago, when I was considering going to college for for dance, my parents told me I was first generation college student, that it would be impossible for me to pay my bills. 00:09:54:20 - 00:09:55:10 Melissa Yeah. 00:09:55:12 - 00:10:22:15 Shaniqua On a dancer's salary or lack thereof. Yeah. And they encouraged me to study. They gave me a list of things that they prefer. I didn't, none of those. But here we are. And to your point, like, we have to feed ourselves. We have to figure out a way to, shelter provider, provide shelter, clothe ourselves. So, I went on a path of just working. 00:10:22:19 - 00:10:45:03 Shaniqua You know, heads down, do my my best after college, like, get a job, work, work, work, work, work. And it felt like I was hustling, albeit I didn't have like multiple streams of income, but it was a constant, grind. I personally felt my creativity was stifled. All I saw was black and white numbers. How could I get the next promotion? 00:10:45:05 - 00:10:54:07 Shaniqua Melissa, do you find that hustle culture could stifle creativity in other people? 00:10:54:09 - 00:11:16:14 Melissa So I resonate with this so much because I also, you know, I went to Juilliard, I was only there for a year because I got injured while I was there, and I ended up leaving and going back to UC Berkeley, where I had been for a year before Juilliard and, you know, ended up sort of following the academic path for a while, which felt to me very black and white, like I was living. 00:11:16:18 - 00:11:48:00 Melissa I mean, I identified during those years as a noncreative person. That's how I perceived myself. But even after that, when I kind of fell backwards into a career as a visual artist, as a calligrapher. I was living essentially hustle culture. I mean, I wasn't yeah, I wasn't making like a bazillion dollars, but I was, I was I was, making a living in Silicon Valley, which is not easy to do from my art. 00:11:48:02 - 00:12:11:10 Melissa But I was believing this story in my head that said that everything I made had to bring in money. And everything I made had to be amazing. I had to be excellent. And if that's not hustle culture, I don't know what is. Yes. And other result of that, my relationship with my creativity was completely poisoned and I never made art. 00:12:11:12 - 00:12:20:09 Melissa I can't really say never, but I almost never very, very rarely made art just for the joy of it. Which is why I got into being an artist in the first place. 00:12:20:09 - 00:12:21:08 Stephanie Because you loved art? 00:12:21:08 - 00:12:22:15 Yeah, because I loved art. 00:12:22:15 - 00:12:29:07 Melissa I loved making things. I loved using my hands to create things and to play around and to, you know, follow my curiosity. 00:12:29:11 - 00:12:40:21 Stephanie I feel like, you know, and and again, resonating deeply to, you know, I had my two options for a veterinarian or engineer, blood makes me pass out and no engineer. And. 00:12:40:23 - 00:12:41:05 Those. 00:12:41:05 - 00:13:07:19 Stephanie Were just like two options. And I wanted to, you know, I was artistic. I wanted to be a writer. That was. I wanted to be a journalist. I wrote, con, I read and wrote constantly. And my dad just was very point blank. Like artists are poor, starving, worthless humans like that was that was the statement. And for me, you know, my nontraditional path led me into drug addiction and rebellion. 00:13:07:21 - 00:13:30:12 Stephanie And I didn't get to go to college. I didn't get to do all these traditional things, and I didn't get a lot of that traditional conditioning. And so I've sort of been like an entrepreneur in certain ways my whole entire life. And I've gone in and out of businesses the way that I wanted to. And I really, actually like it's only been in later years where hustle, hustle culture feels like it's impacted me because I've never had a job. 00:13:30:12 - 00:13:55:16 Stephanie When I quit a job, I've never I've always been in this like very independent mind space of, I can do this on my own, or I can do this for you. And it's one of those things that is like looking at it in hindsight, going, why did I think I could be that way? But it really came down to I didn't get a lot of conditioning through college and education and like these formative things that are valuable that I actually value and I did later on. 00:13:55:18 - 00:14:15:06 Stephanie But I think doing it later let me be freely expressive during that time period. Like, it just I just didn't how I did things in corporate spaces that people would be like, nobody does that. And I'm like, well, why not? You know, like, I don't know why. You know, like, why don't you do it this way? And it just it never even occurred to me that what I was doing was outside of a norm. 00:14:15:07 - 00:14:22:04 Stephanie Yeah. You know, until I finally realized I was actually weird. And then I was like, oh, okay. I get it now. 00:14:22:04 - 00:14:22:22 I'm sorry. 00:14:23:04 - 00:14:24:12 Shaniqua Keep that with you. 00:14:24:15 - 00:14:27:18 Oh, it's totally. Yeah. 00:14:27:18 - 00:14:30:03 Stephanie Built my life around it. 00:14:30:05 - 00:14:53:17 Melissa I get that because I never went I never operated in the corporate world. I didn't have a corporate job or, you know, I never did any of that, which so many of my friends did. So when I came to the corporate world as an outsider, you know, bringing my expertise to work with teams and organizations, I had all this impostor complex. 00:14:53:19 - 00:15:29:07 Melissa And now I talked to friends of mine who, you know, worked for I have a friend who was a leader as a woman in the tech world for a couple of decades and bears the scars. Yeah. And she's like, believe me, you are so lucky. You are so lucky that you avoided all of that. Yeah. And instead of, you know, instead of feeling all this impostor complex, now, I can appreciate the fact that I didn't just like, you didn't have all the programing that I definitely got from, you know, going through college and mass, you know, going through a master's program and all of that. 00:15:29:09 - 00:15:35:11 Melissa You didn't have all of that, and I didn't get all the programing from the corporate world. 00:15:35:13 - 00:15:50:02 Stephanie Is there. It really is. Yeah. I think this is actually a really good price point right now, because I'd like to come back and talk more specifically about what you're doing in the corporate world and kind of what you're seeing and your experiences there. So why don't we take a quick break? 00:15:50:06 - 00:15:52:23 Shaniqua Let's do it. 00:15:53:01 - 00:15:55:01 Stephanie How do we feel so far. 00:15:55:03 - 00:15:55:18 So good? 00:15:55:20 - 00:15:57:16 Shaniqua I'm okay. Great. 00:15:57:18 - 00:15:58:11 Stephanie You want to bring us back? 00:15:58:16 - 00:16:01:08 Shaniqua Yeah, I'll bring us back, today. 00:16:01:09 - 00:16:05:07 Today? 00:16:05:09 - 00:16:07:05 00:16:07:07 - 00:16:10:11 Shaniqua I'm working today. 00:16:10:13 - 00:16:12:23 Okay. 00:16:13:01 - 00:16:26:15 Shaniqua Well, we're back, and we're with the incredible Melissa Dinwiddie. Thank you for being here with us. We before we took our break we were discussing. Give me one. 00:16:26:15 - 00:16:31:05 Second I forgot what we just. 00:16:31:07 - 00:17:04:02 Shaniqua One and two was going on okay. Let me take a. And we're back. We're back with Melissa Dinwiddie. And we're here discussing more about redefining success. And on this half we want to talk about what you are doing how you are helping companies like Google and Meta in their organization. And so you mentioned play and that my antennas were up. 00:17:04:03 - 00:17:04:09 I. 00:17:04:09 - 00:17:14:10 Shaniqua Love playing I play tag with my neighbors, force them actually, when we're raking lawns and Stephanie has playdates, Skype. 00:17:14:12 - 00:17:16:11 Stephanie Calendar, zoom play dates that I send out. 00:17:16:12 - 00:17:29:12 Shaniqua Yeah. So I love it. How are you incorporating play? And, in these mega companies, to help them become more creative beings? 00:17:29:14 - 00:17:59:06 Melissa Well, yeah. Thank you for asking the question. You know, a lot of people think about play and work as being opposites, but in fact, play is not the opposite of work. As I like to say, play is how we make work more effective. When you look at how kids learn, kids learn best through play, and that doesn't suddenly stop when we hit adolescence. 00:17:59:08 - 00:17:59:23 Yeah. 00:18:00:01 - 00:18:33:02 Melissa It's actually that humans learn best through play. So one of the things that I do is I actually help teams and organizations solve problems. And one of my specialty specialty areas is creativity. But I actually talk about working around the areas of this, what I call the three C's connection, communication, and creativity. And that is the intersection of those three C's is where innovation lies. 00:18:33:04 - 00:18:56:20 Melissa It's kind of like a three legged stool. If any one of those three C's is broken in your organization, then innovation is not happening. So I do actually do a lot of work around communication. Not not so much. The, you know, person A and person B are having a conflict between themselves. That is, I'm not the person that you call when that's happening. 00:18:56:20 - 00:19:11:18 Melissa Right. But I am the person that you call when, say, this team of amazing researchers are really brilliant and they're having all these amazing insights, but they're not spreading throughout the organization. 00:19:11:20 - 00:19:12:10 00:19:12:11 - 00:19:40:17 Melissa And or this team of brilliant engineers are doing incredible work, but they're getting passed over for promotions, and we're not getting the funding that we should be getting for our team, because they're brilliant, but they're not selling on how brilliant they are. They're not effective at storytelling. They're their executive presence. So-called is lacking, according to, you know, the leadership higher up. 00:19:40:19 - 00:19:43:10 Melissa So we really need top level. What do you what. 00:19:43:10 - 00:19:44:11 Do you think. 00:19:44:13 - 00:20:13:18 Stephanie Allows a company like in your experience, to have that level of awareness that they need to bring in somebody focused on innovation versus somebody focused on, say, more traditional management? You know, like bringing in somebody you're talking about like, engineers is not being, you know, promoter devalued in the right way and like bringing in somebody that's like more focused on talent and stuff like that, like what makes some of you and that as a, as so. 00:20:13:18 - 00:20:20:09 Melissa Honestly, is tends to be, who, you know. Yeah. Sort of a thing like they, they know me. But how do you. 00:20:20:09 - 00:20:28:22 Stephanie Get the I'm curious from the perspective of you raising their awareness to understand that that's what they need. You know, it's like I, I, we. 00:20:28:22 - 00:20:29:20 Melissa All mark out for a. 00:20:29:20 - 00:20:33:03 Stephanie Lot of time. Do they really? I always say like. 00:20:33:05 - 00:20:33:09 Melissa For. 00:20:33:09 - 00:20:48:09 Stephanie A long time. And people would come to me like, oh, I need a brochure. And you'd ask like five questions and be like, you don't need a brochure, you actually need an entire campaign. And like, you know, and so that's sort of and I'm, you know, I work as a coach and I work with leaders and innovation too. 00:20:48:11 - 00:21:00:23 Stephanie And a lot of times I find people come to me thinking that they need one thing, but really they actually do need something else. You know, they're they're thinking more strategically and maybe not as on that emotive side, which is where all that creativity. 00:21:00:23 - 00:21:28:17 Melissa And so that is actually true as well. I do get I do get on calls with people where they think they need one thing, but in fact they actually need something else. But often what I do get, I'm thinking and, you know, specifically, leaders who have reached out to me where their teams, they could see they really needed to communicate for greater influence and impact. 00:21:28:19 - 00:21:44:17 Melissa And I have specific programs that I've designed for that purpose. Yeah. And then I also have programs designed specifically around, boosting. I would, boosting creativity is sort of a shorthand. We're all creative. 00:21:44:17 - 00:21:45:16 Stephanie Yeah. 00:21:45:18 - 00:22:11:18 Melissa But what happens is that sort of gets covered up and tamped down by, you know, going through a school system that does not teach creativity. It actually teaches us how to obey a single authority figure, namely the teacher. And it teaches us to believe that we're not creative. And so we get to the end of our however many years of school. 00:22:11:20 - 00:22:25:21 Melissa And a very small percentage of people believe that they're creative. The people who identify as artists and musicians and those folks and everybody else thinks, well, we're we're not creative. We're not the creative mind. 00:22:25:23 - 00:22:27:04 Stephanie That's very true. 00:22:27:06 - 00:22:48:23 Melissa And it's really hard to be creative when you think you're not. So what I do is I come in and I use tools, different methodologies from, for example, from the world of improv and then other tools as well from like Lego. Serious play is another tool that I use. But for example, from the world of improv, I'll give you an example. 00:22:49:01 - 00:22:50:02 Stephanie For improv now y'all. 00:22:50:02 - 00:22:52:04 Okay, here's. 00:22:52:09 - 00:23:18:10 Melissa Here's one I love to share because it it's easy for people to really grasp in the community in a communication program that I might run, I want if I want, this team of people say to understand the concept of how to communicate with people who don't have the same level of expertise as you. And this is the happens a lot. 00:23:18:11 - 00:23:18:18 00:23:18:18 - 00:23:38:02 Melissa So, you know, you are trying to explain something and it's just going over their head. And so you as the person who's trying to explain you're getting really frustrated. Why are they, you know, why are they so stupid. Why are they not understanding. So here is an activity that I might run I call it the time traveler. I did not make it up, but it's it's a great activity. 00:23:38:02 - 00:24:03:01 Melissa Yeah. So there are people up. One person is from the present time. Everything's normal for them. And the other person is a time traveler from 500 years ago. So it's 1525. Okay. And so the person from the present time pretends that their cell phone has just gone off, and their job is to explain what this device is to their time traveling partner. 00:24:03:03 - 00:24:21:13 Melissa Now, before I send them off, I pull the room. Let's talk for a moment about what's different for the time traveler. What's different in 1525? How is their life different? So we just got a little popcorn. So I can ask you to how how would life be different for somebody in 1525? 00:24:21:15 - 00:24:24:22 Shaniqua Well, they don't have instant communication same way that we do. 00:24:24:23 - 00:24:25:20 Absolutely. 00:24:26:01 - 00:24:36:23 Stephanie Yeah. Well they they have to probably labor every day just for basic necessities in their life, like to eat or live or anything. 00:24:37:01 - 00:24:37:09 Melissa Yeah. 00:24:37:14 - 00:24:44:00 Stephanie Or like like really like labor. Labor to actually get the food, to grow the food to the like. 00:24:44:02 - 00:24:44:11 Right. 00:24:44:12 - 00:24:46:00 Melissa They can't just go to the grocery store. 00:24:46:01 - 00:24:48:06 Stephanie Right? Right. There's no conveniences in that sense. 00:24:48:06 - 00:25:08:05 Melissa No convenience for them. So we do a little a few minutes of that when we, we, you know, sort of popcorn up things like no electricity, no running water. Yeah. You know, there's no modern medicine, you know, various different things come up. Right. So then I send them off to their whether it's on zoom, the breakout, zoom, breakout room, or off to a corner of the room. 00:25:08:05 - 00:25:28:13 Melissa Why? For in a physical location and they have two minutes to explain what the what this cell phone is to their time traveling partner. But remember this is 1525. So there's a high likelihood that the time traveler is going to think that the present time person is a witch. 00:25:28:13 - 00:25:30:13 Shaniqua Yeah, demonic. 00:25:30:15 - 00:25:31:04 All this. 00:25:31:06 - 00:25:31:20 Shaniqua Crap. 00:25:31:22 - 00:25:35:06 Stephanie Exactly right. 00:25:35:08 - 00:25:35:21 Not only do they. 00:25:36:02 - 00:25:41:11 Melissa Explain what their cell phone is, but they also have to convince them that they're not a witch. 00:25:41:12 - 00:25:47:23 Stephanie That this is not the devil's device. And and really, we don't actually know for sure if that's true or not. 00:25:48:01 - 00:25:49:22 Right? So. 00:25:50:00 - 00:26:18:21 Melissa Right. And so they have to convince them not to condemn them to burn at the day for witchcraft. It is a it is an impossible task. It's very it's very hilarious. People are laughing and it's very silly. But we come back together after two minutes and I poll the room. Okay. How many witches are in the room? Half the room raises their hands, but then I say, okay, time travelers, did your partner did anybody have a partner who did something that was effective? 00:26:18:23 - 00:26:33:19 Melissa And there's always somebody who did something that made their their time traveler partner feel like, oh, yeah, that, you know, that made sense to me. And it always, always, always, invariably was some kind of analogy. 00:26:33:21 - 00:26:34:03 Yeah. 00:26:34:06 - 00:26:38:18 Melissa That related to the Time Traveler's Wife experience. 00:26:38:18 - 00:26:41:11 Stephanie Right. What they could do. Yeah. That makes sense. 00:26:41:13 - 00:27:04:12 Melissa Yeah. So they found a common point of connection. So then we switch roles and I give them some different scenario. It's not a cell phone this time. It's something different. Now the the present time person has a bit of a leg up because now they're thinking, okay, I have to find a common point of connection. I have to find an analogy that my time traveling partner is going to be able to relate to. 00:27:04:18 - 00:27:26:04 Melissa And so there's a better ratio when I bring people together. This time there's still witches in the room, but it's a little bit better ratio this time. So here's the thing. This is this whole activity. It takes 10 or 15 minutes. It doesn't take very long. Yeah. It gets people laughing and it's really sticky. Yeah. Because they just engage in this activity. 00:27:26:09 - 00:27:54:20 Melissa We you know, we debrief the whole thing. And then I ask them like how does this relate to your actual work life? And they start thinking about, oh my gosh, when I had a conversation with my cross-functional teammate, or when I talk to my spouse or whatever, and I get so many emails and responses back and when, when they come back again, because my programs are not just a one off kind of a thing, because that's not nearly as effective as when I stretch it out over multiple weeks. 00:27:54:22 - 00:28:23:01 Melissa We come back again and people always report back. You know, I was talking with again like cross-functional team mate. I started to get frustrated and then I realized, oh my gosh, this is just like that time travel or activity. That's all on me. It's not their fault that they can't understand my responsibility to put myself in their shoes and figure out, you know, what's an analogy that I can use to help them understand? 00:28:23:03 - 00:28:25:22 Melissa It changes how people actually behave? 00:28:25:23 - 00:28:28:05 Stephanie Yeah, that's very powerful. 00:28:28:07 - 00:28:48:22 Melissa Yeah. So that's just one example. And I have a bazillion of these kinds of activities. Sometimes they're pair, sometimes it's the whole group. They're all different. But the idea is to help people sort of identify metaphorical muscles that they can then start to engage with and strengthen. 00:28:49:00 - 00:28:54:15 Shaniqua The I love this. We were looking at your website and I. 00:28:54:15 - 00:28:56:07 Want yeah. 00:28:56:08 - 00:28:59:00 Shaniqua We're big fans of your work. 00:28:59:02 - 00:29:00:15 You know, and. 00:29:00:17 - 00:29:32:18 Shaniqua With this, this sort of, like this game that you're playing with them or this is, yeah, I'll call it a game. Who's in a fight? But this game that you're playing with them, it allows them to not focus on being perfect. They can actually work like it seems like it's continuous for them versus they need it to be immediate, like how they're communicating with their cross-functional partner is assuming that they get it on the first time, the first try. 00:29:32:20 - 00:29:57:09 Shaniqua And it's like all rooted in perfectionism, but your work kind of unravels the need or the requirement for things to be perfect. And that reminds me of your make crap. Yes, I love that. Because for me, I've I've been a perfectionist and being, brought into like, patriarchal white supremacy, like, there was no room for me to be anything other than perfect, if not better than perfect. 00:29:57:13 - 00:30:21:14 Shaniqua And that is just simply impossible to achieve. So you can imagine internally, I've been just screaming, but I didn't know until last year or the year before that I could make a mistake. And no one the harmed. Yeah. So your mate crap almost brought tears to my eyes. Could you talk a little bit more about that process? 00:30:21:16 - 00:30:30:11 Melissa Yeah. Boy, that really touches me that you said that, so lifelong perfectionists here as well, and I, 00:30:30:13 - 00:30:32:23 Yeah. 00:30:33:01 - 00:31:18:10 Melissa I now call myself an intentional Im perfectionist. I have claimed imperfection as, as a label. And what I mean by that is that I forgive myself for being human, and I practice an intentional. And perfectionism also just basically means I practice self-compassion. I allow myself to be human. And when I do something that's human, I get to, step back, acknowledge that, you know, common humanity, step outside of the distress and practice self kindness. 00:31:18:12 - 00:31:19:10 00:31:19:12 - 00:31:50:07 Melissa And that I highly recommend the work of Doctor Kristen Neff, who is the world's foremost expert on self-compassion. And she has a book that I highly recommend called self-compassion. And it's for me, it's been life changing, practicing self-compassion. In fact, I have what I refer to as my golden formula, which is self-awareness. Plus self-compassion equals the key to everything. 00:31:50:07 - 00:32:17:19 Melissa Good, First, we need that self-awareness piece, which is really checking in with yourself, understanding. Or where are you? How do you feel? What's going on? What's working, what's not working? Just really understand being yourself and being aware. That's the self-awareness piece. And then the self-compassion piece is three steps. It's mindfulness. That ability to really step outside of the distress, outside of what's happening. 00:32:17:19 - 00:32:31:23 Melissa And look, look at it from the outside. The second piece is, awareness of common humanity that you're not the only one who's ever experienced whatever's happening right now. And the third piece is the self kindness. 00:32:32:01 - 00:32:53:22 Stephanie That's. I think that's beautiful. I, I even when we talk about these things that are so important and really critical to our well-being as humans and, and then when, when we take that back into the work you're doing in business spaces, I'm curious if and where you see resistance in your work, how that shows up in the process. 00:32:54:00 - 00:33:01:09 Stephanie Does everybody just buy in right away and they're all excited, or DST see people struggling? In what ways does that show up? 00:33:01:11 - 00:33:10:10 Melissa So there's always a there's always sort of a bell curve. Yeah. And of responses to anything that you bring forward. 00:33:10:12 - 00:33:20:23 Stephanie Well, I think of resistance as part of the growth process too. And that's why I ask about it, because I think sometimes when you're resisting, you're actually kind of expressing where the real issue is, you know, like. 00:33:21:01 - 00:33:46:03 Melissa Well, I think that can be I think that can be true for sure. Yeah. And I think that of the three steps in my create the impossible framework of which make crap is the second step, the first is play hard and the second step is make crap. And I think that one is probably the most sort of revolutionary for, the sort of corporate world to engage with. 00:33:46:05 - 00:33:54:03 Melissa And I think it's probably the most important, you know, it's the most challenging and the most important. 00:33:54:08 - 00:33:56:09 Stephanie And your third set, your third step. 00:33:56:11 - 00:33:57:01 Melissa It's the second. 00:33:57:01 - 00:33:59:01 Stephanie Step. I know, but you said the first. 00:33:59:04 - 00:34:00:03 Melissa Step is to learn fast. 00:34:00:04 - 00:34:03:04 Stephanie Learn fast. So I just for the audience, I wanted them to hear all the parts together. 00:34:03:04 - 00:34:03:21 Right. 00:34:03:23 - 00:34:12:14 Melissa Play hard, make crap, learn fast, perfect. And the learn fast is really to approach every experience as a growth opportunity. I think once. 00:34:12:14 - 00:34:20:02 Stephanie You're willing and able to make crap, it's easy to learn fast because you can like really just dive into that. You're putting. 00:34:20:02 - 00:34:20:14 Shaniqua Yourself out. 00:34:20:14 - 00:34:30:02 Stephanie There in expansion mode, right? You're like, oh, it's okay. I can like mess this up and learn from it. And it becomes then part of the process instead of a, yeah, instead of a barrier or, you know, an obstacle, I guess. 00:34:30:05 - 00:34:40:04 Shaniqua So is it you I think you were alluding to this or you're about to talk about this is the, the resistance in the second stage of make crap for. 00:34:40:05 - 00:35:03:23 Melissa I think that's where I get the most resistance and where I see it in the corporate world is there's a lot of lip service paid to the idea of, yeah, we want people to take risks and we want to, you know, let yourself fail and it's fine to fail, but it's just lip service. Because then when you do make a mistake, when you do fail, you get punished for it. 00:35:04:01 - 00:35:07:02 Melissa You either got shamed, you get demoted, or you get fired. 00:35:07:05 - 00:35:08:01 00:35:08:02 - 00:35:27:01 Melissa And that's not the same thing at all. That is not creating psychological safety. That is not actually, giving people permission to be imperfect. That's shutting people down and creating the absolute opposite effect. 00:35:27:03 - 00:35:44:20 Stephanie Absolutely. I'm curious in the work that you do, how how much do you see organizations that really are capable of sort of modeling that behavior of like modeling how to fail up, so to speak, how to fail forward, you know, like, which is there's. 00:35:44:20 - 00:35:45:20 Melissa A lot of work to do. 00:35:45:21 - 00:35:47:20 Yeah. 00:35:47:22 - 00:35:55:03 Stephanie Fell forward is like one of my favorite phrases, you know, it's like I fell forward all the time. Oh my God. 00:35:55:05 - 00:36:00:20 Shaniqua Yeah. The shareholders would prefer that. If it was a failure. Forward. It's a big pile of money. 00:36:00:20 - 00:36:21:21 Stephanie Yeah, I get that. I totally get that. But, you know, that's sometimes, you know, I talk about sometimes like, you know, we step over and step over dollars to pick up dimes all the time because we're so shiny, object driven and and we miss out on the fact that, like, oh, if we would have just like taken that slower stop, that dollar would have been more relevant, you know, and and so yeah. 00:36:21:21 - 00:36:44:05 Stephanie And that I think that capacity and willingness to see failure as progress in the right ways. You know, I mean there's there's abject failure, you know, where you know, like I mean, I guess we can talk about that. But in the in the space of innovation and learning, I don't I don't know how you make progress without failure, you know, I mean, like, it's literally an impossibility. 00:36:44:05 - 00:37:03:23 Stephanie It doesn't exist. And so is like, if, you know, the, the whatever the, the, the light bulb, you know, the 999 of them before the one were, you know, I mean, it's like there were 999 failures before. The one thing works, you know, and it's and that's really the truth of innovation. And I agree with you about the lip service. 00:37:03:23 - 00:37:26:21 Stephanie I talk about value alignment in organizations all the time. And how many organizations like 90% of organizations have that they value innovation or something like it in their value statements. Right. But then when they do studies on like business leaders and they ask like, do you want innovative people in your business? They're like, oh God, no. Like they are too disruptive. 00:37:26:21 - 00:37:47:09 Stephanie They ask too many questions. Like, we just need people to put their heads down and do their jobs. And so you're right, there's a real like just, you know, connection there between what businesses say, you know, what organizations say they want and say they value, and then what they actually express in their values how, you know, how that comes out through action. 00:37:47:09 - 00:38:17:14 Stephanie And so, I and I think it's sad because it, it's self-limiting behavior at the end of the day, like it's very self-limiting, you know, it prevents them from truly being expansive, you know, and just being able to take some risk. You know, I mean, I think the risk is always put down to the individual. And I think organizations and shareholders need to be a little bit more risk willing, frankly, like they need to take as much risk as they expect the average worker to take with their own life. 00:38:17:16 - 00:38:19:15 Stephanie I don't think that there's a balance there at all. 00:38:19:15 - 00:38:44:17 Melissa So yeah. And it really also, you know, so much of it comes down to leadership and leadership needs to be willing to be to demonstrate to model and demonstrate vulnerability and risk taking. And, you know, if if leadership is not willing to show up and show that they can make mistakes. And. 00:38:44:19 - 00:39:09:23 Stephanie You know, it's really interesting. I, I read tarot and and tarot, one of one of the cards is strength and and tarot. What strength like we and our skills. How you opened up at the beginning talking about sort of like what our current examples of success are right now like, and what's being displayed to us and whether or not that aligns. 00:39:09:23 - 00:39:32:03 Stephanie And tarot strength is actually a feminine energy card. And it's about control. It doesn't really have anything to it. You can be as strong or as powerful as you want, but if you don't have any control over that energy, then you're just chaos, right? You're you're not strong. You're actually just chaos. You're destructive. If you can control and channel that energy, that's power. 00:39:32:05 - 00:39:51:16 Stephanie That's actual power. And I think the we get we lose that. That aspect of what strength looks like. Strength just looks, you know, to us like, you know, a Ram truck, like ramming into a, you know, wall knocking it down, you know, and wow, that's power, you know. And it's like or our strength might look like, Twitter temper tantrum, I don't know. 00:39:51:18 - 00:39:56:05 Stephanie Strength looks a lot of different ways to us right now that to me, don't feel strong. 00:39:56:07 - 00:39:56:13 Yeah. 00:39:56:13 - 00:40:20:16 Stephanie To me they feel performative. You know, it feels like performative strength, but not really the essence of what real strength is and what real power is, and that's that ability to control. And I think that relates into the space of innovation because it it takes some strength to be willing to fail. You know, it takes some strength to to put yourself out there in that way and to take those types of risk. 00:40:20:18 - 00:40:23:13 Stephanie It takes an internal fortitude. 00:40:23:15 - 00:40:26:21 Melissa Huge amount. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead. 00:40:26:21 - 00:40:54:20 Shaniqua I'm sorry. I was going to say, I think, in business failure in business, I think we're talking it's, not that it cannot evolve and change because we are seeing that with the work that you're doing. Long term, allowing employees to feel empowered to fail forward, fail fast, etc.. But I think because of everyone has a master, so to speak, like even the CEO has a master in the shareholders. 00:40:54:20 - 00:41:26:14 Shaniqua Right? And the shareholders run the company, the board, you know, like so the CEO may have the intentions to allow their, team to fail forward, fail fast and give them the opportunity. But they have to answer to the, to the board and in the shareholders who want a return on their investment. So I also think that this could be like a even, a conversation in changing how like our, our businesses are run our capitalism to actually like spark that change. 00:41:26:14 - 00:41:44:05 Shaniqua I think it's like a yes and conversation like, yes. We need to be able to fail in business at work. But we also may need to decide, like is the structure, the current structure, is this appropriate? Right. Like does this actually benefit in foster innovation. 00:41:44:07 - 00:42:06:18 Stephanie Absolutely. And and I do think that there is a something that is constantly you know, we talk about shareholders a lot. We don't talk about shareholder accountability pretty much ever at all. And I think that that is a but a huge, huge, huge challenge. And the way that we run our businesses and the way that we're allowed to innovate, the way that we even treat, you know, the people in our businesses. 00:42:06:20 - 00:42:22:01 Stephanie And so I think it's all very relevant. We're coming up on time. So, I, I'm curious. This has been like, I feel like this is like, you know, the first of many conversations. 00:42:22:03 - 00:42:28:02 Shaniqua We've thoroughly enjoyed meeting with you. And we want to introduce you to Melinda. Raphael's. 00:42:28:04 - 00:42:43:09 Stephanie Yes. Y'all would actually really sync up very, very well. She is also, a creativity innovation play specialist and and also a musician. And so y'all have so many like, syncs that. Yeah, maybe, maybe y'all can't meet each other. You might be doppelganger. 00:42:43:09 - 00:42:44:23 So. 00:42:45:01 - 00:42:45:11 Stephanie Two things. 00:42:45:13 - 00:42:48:15 Shaniqua Can't exist in the same place. She's here in Austin. 00:42:48:16 - 00:43:00:20 Stephanie Sheila. Yeah, she's here in town. And she was actually an earlier a guest on one of our earlier episodes. So that we'll make a point to do that. So let's see some takeaways from this discussion. I'm Shaniqua, what do you got? 00:43:00:22 - 00:43:28:04 Shaniqua Well, Melissa, as I mentioned before, just, like, knowing that I can be imperfect. I loved your take. You mentioned intentionally imperfect. I'm taking that with me. And being self-aware, and, I, I appreciate your your thoughts around being imperfect. So that's the takeaway that I will forever cherish. 00:43:28:06 - 00:43:30:00 Melissa Awesome. 00:43:30:02 - 00:43:33:17 Shaniqua What about you, Stephanie or Melissa? Do you want to go next? 00:43:33:19 - 00:43:36:14 Oh, wow. 00:43:36:16 - 00:44:08:21 Melissa Oh, my God, I'm put on the spot here. Well, you know. Having a conversation with people who take things away from what I say is always really, validating. So I love, I actually had I was on a guest on a podcast yesterday. And what, what? This conversation, I think, sort of validated it from the conversation I had yesterday. 00:44:08:23 - 00:44:43:03 Melissa The host was sharing that my Create the Impossible framework, which is really so much about generating breakthroughs and innovation. He was sharing that for him. It felt like, given my background, it was as much about, resilience. And that feels like what, from from what we were talking about today and and about, you know, imperfection and all of that feels like a validation of what what I heard from that host yesterday. 00:44:43:03 - 00:44:46:19 Melissa So I don't know if that makes any sense, but that's kind of a take away when you had. 00:44:46:19 - 00:44:51:01 Stephanie To send us a link to that podcast episode two so we can check it out. 00:44:51:03 - 00:44:54:06 I feel like, yeah. 00:44:54:08 - 00:44:55:04 Shaniqua What's your takeaway? 00:44:55:04 - 00:45:13:10 Stephanie So I, you know, I had so many takeaways and really just that the whole really at the core, like what, what we look at as success and hustle, hustle culture. Why I cannot say that word right now because because it doesn't fit into my vocabulary. I literally feel like just as. 00:45:13:15 - 00:45:15:12 Melissa It that it's a lie. 00:45:15:14 - 00:45:55:06 Stephanie You know, that like really we're and and and I think the most important thing about it, it's like it's fine if we're being manipulated by a system and we can. But but it's when we're allowing. Well, when we're not allowing that self-awareness, that self kindness, when we are lying to ourselves and trying to convince ourselves of something. That, you know, that in and of itself is where we really need to begin to evolve as just recognizing our own truth and then bringing that forward into these spaces that are expecting us like to do so much for others without really that internal fulfillment coming back to us. 00:45:55:06 - 00:46:17:22 Stephanie You know, I feel like it's just something we need to claim, and more and more people are claiming it, you know, and I think, you know, people like Melissa that are bringing not just the awareness of that it needs to happen, but methodology because we've lost it, you know, like we've lost the ability to or point where it's been conditioned out of us through education. 00:46:18:02 - 00:46:41:05 Stephanie It's been conditioned out of us just through capitalist, you know, mindsets and things like that. And so, yeah, I think we have a lot of relearning to do, but there's so much opportunity and possibility, I mean, that so does to me it's very exciting. Like I love it when we're on the changes. Like my favorite thing, nobody likes it but me. 00:46:41:07 - 00:46:45:21 Stephanie I love it more on that. We're more on the precipice of change, you know? It's like it's just so. 00:46:46:00 - 00:46:50:06 Shaniqua We get to decide how we design it, you know? So it's really exciting. 00:46:50:06 - 00:46:57:23 Stephanie Absolutely. That's so. So I don't know if that takeaway made sense either, because I'm awful in my head right now. I'm like, I'm going to have to set up a playdate with you. 00:46:58:01 - 00:47:00:00 All know that. 00:47:00:02 - 00:47:07:19 Shaniqua Melissa, where can our guest find you? And so we made this earlier. 00:47:07:21 - 00:47:08:19 Who. 00:47:08:21 - 00:47:11:06 Shaniqua Would who would be the ideal? 00:47:11:08 - 00:47:12:11 Stephanie Who should look for you? Yeah. 00:47:12:15 - 00:47:14:00 00:47:14:02 - 00:47:31:07 Melissa Well, you can find me at my website which is my name Melissa Dinwiddie. Dot com. You can also find me on LinkedIn again. My name Melissa Dinwiddie I also have a YouTube channel again my name at Melissa Dinwiddie. And you can you can follow. 00:47:31:09 - 00:47:32:05 You can follow. 00:47:32:05 - 00:47:54:08 Melissa My art I have I create art show us all and abstract I like the spontaneous abstract improvizational artworks also known as doodles. Nice on Instagram. This one breaks the pattern. It's at a underscore creative underscore life. 00:47:54:09 - 00:47:54:20 Stephanie Nice. 00:47:54:20 - 00:48:08:23 Melissa And also I made a little a little gift for your podcast listeners. It's a free one page checklist. Actually, I know what I have a QR code there. It is. 00:48:09:01 - 00:48:10:11 Pretty cool. 00:48:10:13 - 00:48:36:09 Melissa A free one page checklist that gives you a quick, practical way to unlock fresh ideas and spark innovation fast. It's called My Impact Innovation Checklist, and it's especially great if you think you're not the creative type. And I made, a special Bitly link. It's bitly slash fit I thank you. 0101 word, all lowercase. 00:48:36:11 - 00:48:37:11 Thank you. 00:48:37:12 - 00:48:40:23 Shaniqua Thank you so much. This is incredible. 00:48:41:01 - 00:48:41:12 I'm so. 00:48:41:12 - 00:48:42:10 Stephanie Excited. It's like. 00:48:42:10 - 00:48:42:22 Melissa Our first. 00:48:42:22 - 00:48:44:07 Stephanie Guest, Jeff. 00:48:44:09 - 00:48:49:07 Oh, thank you. Oh, well, this. 00:48:49:08 - 00:49:12:15 Melissa And then the, like you people to reach out to me. If you lead a team and especially, although not exclusively, but especially team A teams of sort of more analytical folks, that's kind of my sweet spot. But any kind of team leaders, I love to work with teams. So yeah. 00:49:12:17 - 00:49:14:14 Stephanie Fantastic. 00:49:14:16 - 00:49:27:00 Shaniqua Incredible conversation today. Melissa, thank you so much again for joining us today. It's been life changing. And also like validating as well. 00:49:27:02 - 00:49:32:06 Stephanie Super robust. This is we rarely take the whole hour. So this is an awesome 00:49:32:08 - 00:49:32:21 Thank you so. 00:49:32:21 - 00:49:41:17 Melissa Much for having me. This is just been incredibly a rich conversation and just a complete and utter honor and delight to be here. So thank you. 00:49:41:19 - 00:49:46:03 Stephanie Excellent. You want to close this for us? 00:49:46:05 - 00:49:59:01 Shaniqua Please make sure if you like this episode to, like, share with your friends, coworkers, family comment. And thank you so much. We'll see you again next episode. 00:49:59:03 - 00:49:59:15 Stephanie Awesome. 00:49:59:15 - 00:50:02:00 Bye. Yeah. It.